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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
03.12.2014 , 11:18 AM | #4321
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
"Switch to [that other AC] now or get kicked" scenario doesn't happen now because there's no way to change AC. If it was allowed then most of the players in groups want to optimize the run: get most effective combination of ACs to complete FP/Operation as fast as possible. Actually it already happens in operations, the main reason why GF doesn't pop up for Operations ever.
no, the main reason why ops groupfinder doesn't pop ever, is NOT because of min maxing AC's . its because random pugs in general can be more hit than miss. the only time you have people using it nowadays is when they have mostly complete group and just need to feel in a few spots. most of the time - people just make up manual pugs in general chat, becasue at least that way they can control whom they take along. and even then, primary concern is NOT a specific AC as much as experience and general level of gear. I never ONCE seen a pug look for a specific healer or specific tank and very rarely do they specify melee vs ranged dps. as for guilds? good ones don't demand that you switch AC. they only ask if you can switch "ROLES" if you previously indicated availability to do so. bad guilds? are already bad and unnecessarily picky because they refuse to accept that the reason they cannot clear content quickly is NOT their composition.

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
03.12.2014 , 11:19 AM | #4322
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
However, to say that choosing to pick up two blast pistols (mercenary) instead of one (powertech) as a Bounty Hunter is some how beyond the scope of reasoning and goes against everything MMOs stand for is slightly baffling to me
Two pistols instead of one is a cosmetic difference, not a mechanical one. The difference between Powertech and Mercenary is like the difference between Juggernaut and Mercenary, one is a melee class, the other is ranged. If we were to be allowed to switch between melee and ranged classes, and stealth and non-stealth classes, I'd very much like to be allowed to use set-ups from other classes as well, since we've decided that the division is more or less arbitrary.
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Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
03.12.2014 , 11:21 AM | #4323
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
For AC swapping, you have mechanical difficulties with gearing. Juggs/Guardians use heavy armor, marauders/sents do not. Mercs/mandos don't use generators like vanguards do.
Non issue.
My Powertech in Tank spec (Shieldtech) uses a completely different set of gear and offhand than he does in DPS spec (Advanced Prototype).

You go out and you get a second set (or more) of gear. It really isn't that difficult

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
03.12.2014 , 11:22 AM | #4324
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
novelists and directors come up with new stories to enjoy - that take a LOT less time to enjoy than leveling the same class - and movies and novels have an ending, while playing an MMO doesn't really, as you don't just abandon a character at 55, usually, you get them to 55 so that you could continue to play them at 55. but the comparison was NOT used to compare media, but rather illustrate the mindset of a person who doesn't enjoy repetitive stories.
Which does NOT address at all the original problem(?), which is the fact some people may dislike rereading or rewatching whatever content you're referring to. Special emphasis is to be given to the word "some".

Either way, I do agree that the comparison with other kind of media is not the best nor the easiest really.

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last I checked its a game as well - its a hobby. and some people have limited time to enjoy their hobbies.
Indeed.

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and you are telling them basically, that they are SoL when it comes to this particular hobby, just because they made a choice before having all the information (how the class plays) and have to start over... and spend hours and hours and HOURS doing something unenjoyable, just to try the other AC. and this being a game and a hobby?
This is untrue, since people are told REPEATEDLY that their decision is final.

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WHY exactly AC is such serious business that it MUST be a permanent choice?
It's not so serious business per se but rather the question that arises with it: Where does it end?

If people are not satisfied with a particular choice they've done, should they be entitled to change it? Should they be entitled to repeat - for example - a full planetary story arc, in whatever given storyline, because they regret having done something they shouldn't? Where's the consequence factor?

The moment everything is allowed to be changed, I guess the game pretty much becomes meaningless, both from a storyline and gameplay perspective.

Again, people have the ability to reroll. If they honestly believe it's not worth the bother, then I guess this is not the game they're looking for.

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and there will always be people who complain. that's a fact of life. but those restrictions are a compromise between having NO option and having SOME option. but you'd rather have nothing that something in a middle, it seems.
And who defines that middle ground? You? Me? The OP? Can you even be certain that an everlasting compromise could even be achieved? I sincerely doubt it.
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Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
03.12.2014 , 11:22 AM | #4325
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
Non issue.
My Powertech in Tank spec (Shieldtech) uses a completely different set of gear and offhand than he does in DPS spec (Advanced Prototype).

You go out and you get a second set (or more) of gear. It really isn't that difficult
The issue isn't one of regearing, its one of technical side. The argument being made was that swapping class mechanics is too technically difficult, but even swapping ACs would have technical difficulties. Namely illegal gear in slots and skill leveling.
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Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
03.12.2014 , 11:23 AM | #4326
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
Merc healers to Merc dps all benefit from the same stats, which means easier regearing than the example you had. My point had less to do with regearing, and more to do with the issues of invalid items in slots and whatnot. We're talking a lot of technical difficulty either way. Why not allow players to use the mechanics from other classes?
using mechanics from other classes is not the issue we are discussing here - you are just trying for a slippery slope argument that completely doesn't fit. changing over all the flags of the entire story and companions is the issue. there are degrees of technical difficulty.

AC swap puts most of the burden on the shoulders of the player. it wouldn't take much coding to make that choice temporary instead of permanent. it will require changing NOTHING else on a part of bioware. and on a part of player? very little. invalid items in slots? just go into your bags, the way going preferred without artifact unlock works now. or getting HK on a character under lvl 50. they may have those items temporarily equipped, but they don't really work and once you unequip them, you cannot equip them back. the technology is already in game.

base class swap? the burden is mostly on bioware shoulders, and the only easy way to do it is just to reset and entire story... which makes the whole change over mostly pointless, since you'd have to play all the way through from scratch and the only advantage you MIGHT have is playing through gray quests and being able to skip more side quests..

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
03.12.2014 , 11:26 AM | #4327
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
using mechanics from other classes is not the issue we are discussing here - you are just trying for a slippery slope argument that completely doesn't fit. changing over all the flags of the entire story and companions is the issue. there are degrees of technical difficulty.

AC swap puts most of the burden on the shoulders of the player. it wouldn't take much coding to make that choice temporary instead of permanent. it will require changing NOTHING else on a part of bioware. and on a part of player? very little. invalid items in slots? just go into your bags, the way going preferred without artifact unlock works now. or getting HK on a character under lvl 50. they may have those items temporarily equipped, but they don't really work and once you unequip them, you cannot equip them back. the technology is already in game.

base class swap? the burden is mostly on bioware shoulders, and the only easy way to do it is just to reset and entire story... which makes the whole change over mostly pointless, since you'd have to play all the way through from scratch and the only advantage you MIGHT have is playing through gray quests and being able to skip more side quests..
Just talking about swapping mechanics here, not the story and companions.


The swap between one AC's mechanics and one's class mechanics would both require:
1. Illegal gear to be deslotted
2. New skills to be bought and old ones disposed of

Which makes them very much comparable. Is there any reason a mercenary shouldn't be able to dual-wield vibroswords?

*EDIT

Also, I'm not trying to make a slippery slope argument. I'm genuinely arguing that it makes more sense to either maintain mechanical integrity of each AC, or to allow everyone to use whatever combat mechanics they want. To allow only partial freedom for switching a character's combat mechanics is arbitrary.
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Seldan's Avatar


Seldan
03.12.2014 , 11:26 AM | #4328
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
Merc healers to Merc dps all benefit from the same stats, which means easier regearing than the example you had. My point had less to do with regearing, and more to do with the issues of invalid items in slots and whatnot. We're talking a lot of technical difficulty either way. Why not allow players to use the mechanics from other classes?
The technical issues regarding gear differences can be addressed with adaptive gear and gear kits as part of the AC Change feature.

For example, if someone decided to change a Juggernaut to a Marauder, the "AC Change Token" would contain a set of orange adaptive gear and a secondary lightsaber.

This is similar to the kit you receive ( lightsaber, generator, assault cannon, etc ) when you first select an AC, or the speeder pilot token you receive when purchasing a mount from the Cartel Market.

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
03.12.2014 , 11:26 AM | #4329
I am not commenting one way or the other on the change but I will say something about the differences.

I have a sage (healer) and a shadow (dps) and they play very differently.

One thing a shadow has stealth and some of the attacks need to be used from stealth and that is not something you can figure out without learning the skills and working with your character.

Sage for a healer you need to be aware of your force management or you will run out of force and thereby negate your ability to heal and that can make a difference in a flashpoint on whether someone dies or stays alive.

Yes we have problems in group pickups now but do we know whether doing this would make it worse? No idea and I will not guess. For me it is not problem because I rarely run in groups as I do most everything with my guild.

The problem I see and something that may need to be taken into consideration is for the most part the stats can be very different but will a player that just switched AC wait to run a hard mode if he or she doesn't have the correct mods or will they get into a group and expect the group to carry them without them at least attempting to replace some of the items. They also would need to be upfront with the group about just changing their AC but how many would?

I waited until I had the proper gear to start doing hardmodes even though my guild didn't mind but I wanted to be able to do my part not hinder them.

These are things that need to be consider before and if they allow AC and they need to make it where they can't keep changing AC at a drop of a hat just because something didn't work the way someone wanted it to. Some people quit when things don't go their way instead of trying to learn what they did wrong or they want to pass the blame to someone else.

Like I said I don't care either way but there are pros and cons on both sides and it needs to be examine and if they allow them to do this then it needs to have a cooldown and I would say two months not one because maybe by giving it a two month cooldown someone might actually take the time to figure out what they did wrong instead of just switching when something goes wrong.

Just my ideas and opinion.

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Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
03.12.2014 , 11:27 AM | #4330
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
The issue isn't one of regearing, its one of technical side. The argument being made was that swapping class mechanics is too technically difficult, but even swapping ACs would have technical difficulties. Namely illegal gear in slots and skill leveling.
The slots are emptied back into inventory and the games tracks what rank abilities are and if they are active or not (something I suspect it may already be capable of if you look at the way trainers list abilities available)
I'm always wary of arm-chair generals/ programmers but that surely wouldn't be much of an issue compared to untangling the myriad of story choices and their impact as you level.

[Edit] It's not that the swapping of class mechanics is difficult it's the data tracking that follows the choices you've made in your story with both NPCs and Companions. This data tracking has also been mentioned as the technical hurdle behind the restriction on gender swapping.