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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
11.21.2013 , 02:05 PM | #3871
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
Ratajack: you seem to be hung up on the word "CLASS" as if it has some immutable holy significance. It does not. As far as I and my arguments/logic are concerned, wow specs could have been called Advanced Classes or ACs here could be called Primary Specs (not as catchy). It's an arbitrary word that is made up and qualified by every game designer differently. It's not an absolute. It's not objectively defined. How is "acs can't switch because classes can't switch" an argument or even a reason? Ac choice in this game is not EQUIVALENT to class choice in other games, regardless of your ancient quote from that BW dev which isn't relevant (no moreso than my youtube video showing lead devs and producers, multiple, not all fired, saying specifically that ac spec will happen no more than 5 mos before release). You need to explain what exactly is so horrificly fundamentally wrong with ac swapping(call it primary spec swapping, for argument's sake) in this game. And don't say "because you read a paragraph of text saying it's final" - Why should it be? Characters should be locked into choices? Why this one in particular? Throwing out the word "class" which has different implications/meanings in other games, EQUIVALENT choices in other games, which may have been "final" initially, were changed to "not final" and those games did not suffer.
The term CLASS is defined by the MAKERS of a particular game, and NOT the players of that game. In this game, the devs have said that the AC's are fundamentally DIFFERENT class designs, that they see the AC's as DIFFERENT classes, and that they treated each of the AC's as a full class. The devs, BTW, have NEVER contradicted that stance, or indicated that they see the AC's as anything other than DIFFERENT classes.

There is NO equivalent choice in "other games" if which I am aware. Choosing a spec in WoW is about as far from choosing an AC in this game as could be possible. Once you choose a spec in WoW, you do NOT have to then choose a secondary spec into which to allocate talent points. In this game, you choose an AC (class), and then you have to choose your spec. That's two decisions and not one. Your class in WoW gives you access to your three specs as does your AC in this game.

In both WoW and this game, you can change your SPEC, but in neither game can you change your CLASS.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
11.21.2013 , 02:07 PM | #3872
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
The term CLASS is defined by the MAKERS of a particular game, and NOT the players of that game.
Please see the following link for this games "CLASSES": http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes
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Savej's Avatar


Savej
11.21.2013 , 02:10 PM | #3873
Quote: Originally Posted by branmakmuffin View Post
Which doesn't stop the slippery slopists from arguing that if AC change is allowed, class change will soon follow.
many of the arguments for ac swap could almost equally apply to allow for class swapping. As could many of the arguments against AC swapping aplly against allowing any skill respecs at all. I wouldn't seriously worry about full class changes because they would take quite a bit of dev resources. Switching classes could be said to be part of the lore (rogue -> jedi, jedi -> sith, sith -> jedi, etc) but I would never argue for full class swapping. I wouldn't argue against it either, unless someone tried to lump it into my position in this argument.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
11.21.2013 , 02:11 PM | #3874
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
No one is asking to be able switch their druid tank to warrior tank or dps or whatever. Bad straw man. Druids aren't warriors , not because of the word "class" but because of the distinctions between them (what the word "class" means in that game) . In wow, different classes have completely different abilities, completely different gear options, different race options, different origin and class quests, different trainers, etc.. Flipping from one to another has many many issues that don't exist for AC swaps here. The equivalent to that here would be asking to switch between (dps knight) and shadow (dps cons) which, again, no one is seriously asking for.

Wow analogies are good analogies because, for better or worse, these are mechanically very similar games and it's easy to see what works/doesn't.
WoW classes have different skills and abilities? Like powertech and mercenary have DIFFERENT skills? Like marauder and juggernaut have DIFFERENT skills? Like sage and shadow have DIFFERENT skills? Like an assassin can stealth, but a sorcerer cannot? Like a scoundrel can stealth and heal but a gunslinger cannot? Need I go on?

WoW classes have different gear? LIke pwertechs have a single blaster and mercenaries dual wield? Like assassins use a double balded lightsaber and sorcerers use single balded lightsaber? Like comandos use an assault cannon and vanguards use a blaster rifle? Like sniper use a sniper rifle and operatives use a blaster rifle? Need I go on?

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
11.21.2013 , 02:12 PM | #3875
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
WoW classes have different skills and abilities?

WoW classes have different gear?
This isn't W0W.
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Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
11.21.2013 , 02:14 PM | #3876
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
This isn't W0W.
True, and this isn't a game in which you an change your CLASS, thankfully.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
11.21.2013 , 02:15 PM | #3877
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
True, and this isn't a game in which you an change your CLASS, thankfully.
Right. I agree. I'd like CLASS to stay as is. This thread is about Advanced Class though.
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Savej's Avatar


Savej
11.21.2013 , 02:22 PM | #3878
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
WoW classes have different skills and abilities? Like powertech and mercenary have DIFFERENT skills? Like marauder and juggernaut have DIFFERENT skills? Like sage and shadow have DIFFERENT skills? Like an assassin can stealth, but a sorcerer cannot? Like a scoundrel can stealth and heal but a gunslinger cannot? Need I go on?

WoW classes have different gear? LIke pwertechs have a single blaster and mercenaries dual wield? Like assassins use a double balded lightsaber and sorcerers use single balded lightsaber? Like comandos use an assault cannon and vanguards use a blaster rifle? Like sniper use a sniper rifle and operatives use a blaster rifle? Need I go on?
Again, straw man... Troll much? I didn't say there were no differences between p-tech and merc. In my argument I used word combinations like "completely different". But p-tech and merc here share the same armor, stats, weapon mods for mainhand, companions, trainers, stories, -many- abilities, race restrictions, etc., etc.. None of that can be said for druids and warriors in Wow. Continue.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
11.21.2013 , 02:32 PM | #3879
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Right. I agree. I'd like CLASS to stay as is. This thread is about Advanced Class though.
Let's be honest, this thread is about CLASS changes, no matter how limited.

I've already proven that you KNOW and that you let slip that you KNOW the AC's are DIFFERENT classes.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
11.21.2013 , 02:35 PM | #3880
WoW has 11 classes with 3 specializations each (last time I checked). You can change between those specs, and even save two spec setups to change on the fly.

The problem here is that you have your class, and then you have your class nested inside a class, and THEN you have your specializations.

It is the class nested inside a class part that is the problem. I suspect it is because AC does not feel like a class, it feels like a spec. That is why, IMO, folks want to be able to change AC...if it actually felt like a class I don't think we would be having this conversation.

They could fix this. Instead they seem to have chosen to leave it ambiguous and allow this debate to continue.