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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
11.20.2013 , 10:07 PM | #3841
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
Or we can just call it 8 Classes each with 2 Advanced Classes each with 3 Specializations... you know like the game says


If you want it to die just ignore it and don't post. There hasn't been anything outstandingly new since the first few pages. The arguments still boil down to Pro-AC swap crowd 'we want added choice and customisation options that aren't limited to a very early level or time consuming level grind', Anti-AC swap crowd 'We don't want people to have more options'.


It's an opinion nothing more, nothing less. I can't say I agree with being so opposed to allowing players a little more choice and opening up some element of flexibility in end game content without necessarily imposing on them a hefty time sink.


I think the majority of Pro-AC want a button that allows them the option to swap AC but with a cost attached to it. We can maybe debate over the potential cost and what is considered a reasonable sum. Far too many costs suggested by the Anti-AC swap crowd are just so high you may as well not bother implementing the feature.


It's just a game, you know something you can sink a little disposable time into to divert your attention away from the hassles of real life. It doesn't need to be a time sink that starts to eat up more time than it needs to. Maybe, once upon a time when the game was purely subscription based there would have been a more coherent argument to restrict player AC choice more to make them play longer and extend their subscription. But know with the hybrid model it makes more sense to offer a time/cartel market option.
Life comes with a limited number of hours, you should make the most of them in the best way you can.

So, all those "other games" that do not allow class changes, are "restrictive" and require a "time sink" to play a new class are "wrong"?

It may be a game, but that does not mean that everything should be handed to those who choose to play. MMO's are built around things like "time sinks", grinds and players having to actually put a little effort into getting some of things they want.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
11.20.2013 , 10:11 PM | #3842
Well, MajikMyst, I offer my apologies, the tone of your recent posts have been informed and insightful. I appreciate your contribution to the thread and hope this continues. Perhaps I misjudged you.

Of course you don't need my approval, but I offer my apologies at any rate.

MajikMyst's Avatar


MajikMyst
11.20.2013 , 10:12 PM | #3843
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
All I can remember from my time in WoW was the Paladin bubble and hearthstone. Not to mention their self heals still generated AOE threat.


And the AC swap as currently proposed wouldn't change that. If you were playing your Consular as a Shadow they would not have access to the default healing abilities of the Sage, and if you swapped over to playing as a Sage then you wouldn't have access to the taunt abilities and tanking stance of the Shadow. It would keep the unique abilities of the ACs separate. The biggest hurdle in implementing such a feature would be keeping track of the advancement in various abilities when you switch between them. My limited knowledge of object oriented programming suggests that it wouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle, especially if the abilities already have unique identities.
Sorry.. The way you describe it just seems so.... I guess lost.. There is just no respect for your character.. I have both a sage and a shadow.. They are two separate characters..

I just don't think I could go for it if it was something that someone could do anytime they wanted.. There is little point to having a class or a spec at that point.. I mean why bother.. It is a fundamental change in the game..
Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows him?

[.] Lost but never forgotten!! 12-01-2011 R.I.P.

MajikMyst's Avatar


MajikMyst
11.20.2013 , 10:14 PM | #3844
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
Well, MajikMyst, I offer my apologies, the tone of your recent posts have been informed and insightful. I appreciate your contribution to the thread and hope this continues. Perhaps I misjudged you.

Of course you don't need my approval, but I offer my apologies at any rate.
Apology accepted.. Feel free to join us in the discussion..
Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows him?

[.] Lost but never forgotten!! 12-01-2011 R.I.P.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
11.20.2013 , 10:25 PM | #3845
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
No need to apologise, I actually appreciate the time you've taken to expand on the prerelease beta period. Unfortunately I didn't have a rig capable of running SWTOR at that time, nor have I ever been lucky enough to get into betas
As to the choice, I wish they had made the AC choice one made at first level. It's a lot clearer and doesn't leave any sense that you've made the wrong choice after you've grown attached to a character.
I see what you are saying, but I see no real difference between choosing a class at creation and choosing a class at level 10. If I choose the sith inquisitor story and then at level 10 choose assassin, but realize later that I would prefer to play a ranged DPS class over a melee DPS class, I have to reroll. The same goes for "that other game" if I choose to create a rogue, but later realize that I would prefer to play a ranged DPS class, such as hunter. I have to reroll, no matter how attached to that rogue I might be, and no matter what "unique and no longer obtainable items" he may have.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
I also think it's important that a character doesn't have access to Tanking abilities and Healing abilities at the same time. I know I've mentioned this before, and I know other MMOs have allowed a mix of tanking and healing abilities on the same build. However having experienced how much hardier a companion is (Treek) when they have access to both sets at the same time I can't help but feel slightly justified that it would make issues balancing PvP even harder.
The truth is though that while AC swapping would allow a character to potentially be a Tank or a Healer they would not retain the full sets of abilities at the same time. I feel this is an important distinction. The choice is Tank OR Heal, definitely not Tank AND Heal.
I think it is important to recognize that the devs did not say that they do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills AT THE SAME TIME. They said they do not want a single character to be able to tank AND heal. They do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills, AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
11.20.2013 , 10:51 PM | #3846
Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
You will get no arguments here.. I think the light side and dark side has been a complete waste of time on their part.. I wish they would have done much more with it.. Sadly for now it seems that it only has a minor impact on your gear and that is about it..
Aside from the obvious impact of Darkside corruption (which can be turned off ) I really like the Lightside only heavy boots that are on the Imperial LS vendor. Certainly no impact on endgame gear as relics and such have no restriction. Can't see them taking the time to develop the system further or incorporating the gray items.
I would have also liked to have seen less balanced use of light side/ Neutral/ Dark side choices in conversations, many of the Imperial faction quests should have been Dark Side/ Really Dark Side/ Really Really Really Dark side

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
They could have done more with the stories.. They are for the most part Single player affairs.. In fact I can't think of a single point in the Jedi, smuggler, and trooper stories that require another player.. So they very well could have made your LS/DS choice have an impact on out come.. It would have been nice..

Spoiler
I've played through all of the class stories now and they are all single player content. Some of the little phases you go into for class specific stuff are some of the nicer set pieces, but no matter what you do in them once you step out and that force field goes red you can't go back in again. This was perhaps one of the bigger disappointments I came across while playing.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
The benefit of having a set class with a preset set of skills is balance.. How would you make an Op that could allow anyone with any varying talents to succeed?? It would just seem to me that the freestyle approach isn't very structured and therefore hard to balance.. But then I have never played a game like that so.. I don't know.. It just seems to me that someone out there would find the worst build and couldn't do much of anything..
You can make the OPs as difficult as you like but what you'd find is the community would quickly theory craft the best character builds and those cookie cutter designs would be expected to be used for Operations. In effect you would probably have less free choice to customise your character than you currently have.
In effect the discreet abilities the Advanced Classes have is the devs own premade cookie cutter designs that segregate the abilities into roughly balanced packages. This allows gives them the knowledge of what the potential is for a group at endgame content.
Back at the gaming table, the more open systems like GURPS work very well once you get to know your players and if you are planning a more intricate and realistic campaign. Restricted class based systems work far better if you have to cater to drop in players you've never gamed with before.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
That boils down to one simple question... Do you want story or don't you?? This game was sold on the idea of story.. And I must say.. I tend to agree in many way.. I think the game lives or dies on story.. I enjoyed story when I was leveling.. I am starting to hating now that I am leveled..
I enjoyed most of the stories but don't feel the options the player has to meaningfully interact has lived up to the hype prerelease. Look at a previous release of Biowares like Dragonage: Origins and there are real choices that impact upon your progression, especially when it comes to companions (there are at least three I can think of that you may not even get to add to your group having them killed off beforehand).
I can't agree more that the game lives or dies on its story telling merits and that's why I would have preferred to see a slightly different way of engaging the player and drawing them into the experience. As it stands you get the story BW wanted to tell you and you have no say in the matter once you have selected that initial class.
You could have kept the same story elements and just broken them down into smaller chunks assigning them to the various smaller factions (Jedi/ Sith/ Empire/ Republic/ Mandalorians/ Imperial I.ntelligence/ etc...) at particular reputation levels. Many of the companions don't feel specific to the class story they are attached to but form a huge chunk of the class story. Extracting them out and placing them in as individuals with their own reputation/ affection rating and quests and affinity for certain other factions.
So you keep the core story elements but instead of being told how you will interact with them you get to put them together yourself and build your own story.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
This game is what is really because one simple reason.. Bioware wanted to create a game that would compete with WOW.. There was no game on the market that could directly compete with WOW.. They might have done it had EA not get involved.. This game was loosely designed around the system that WOW uses.. Characters creation is a bit different.. Character organization is completely different.. But there are a lot of skills that look the same to similar skills in WOW.. That circle of healing that sages do in this game.. Looks exactly like the circle of healing that Priests do in WOW.. In fact Sage healers and Priest healers could almost be one in the same.. Then we have companions and WOW does not..
I don't think BW had the financial foundation to venture into the realms of MMO without the backing of a big publisher and publishers like to see a product. And the similarity is the same across many MMOs in terms of roles and abilities, it's a form of conservatism to alleviate the risk of a new product. The more expensive a project the less likely it will take the risks needed to truly put it ahead. Plus it was trying to lure in an existing market and so you need that level of familiarity. Unfortunately a large chunk of the gaming community is very savvy, has high expectations of any new product and can devour content at a truly frightening rate.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
Well.. Story is going to leave them pretty much restricted to the classes we have.. They have already said that cost to voice out and create the conversations for a new class will prohibit a new class from being added.. As for adding an AC?? I don't know if that one is going to happen either.. They really would have to add a new AC to all classes.. Which coding wise to me is more work that adding a new class.. You couldn't just add a new AC to consular and call it good.. You would have to add one to all of them.. Then the balance issues.. Which they have proven to be slow at fixing at times.. I am talking about the shadow and their spikiness here...
I think the first natural focus of considering new ACs for the existing classes is to flesh out the missing roles that currently exist.
I can't really use Bounty Hunter to illustrate that as they have the core roles covered (Powertech - Tank, Melee DPS/ Mercenary - Healer, Ranged DPS) that said the Powertech's melee DPS role is heavily focused on gadgets like flamethrowers and rockets. It would be nice to have a melee DPS role that uses techblades and/or techstaves without relying so heavily on the gadgets. Balance issues aside the easiest option would be to mirror an existing melee DPS classes abilities from the force classes (easiest example would be the Marauder/Sentinel abilities)
Those classes that have missing roles (Sith Warrior/ Jedi Knight - no healer or ranged DPS role, Imperial Agent/ Smuggler - no Tank role) have more obvious needs for a new AC.
One advantage of this would be it sitting along side the existing system and could effectively be dropped in and then levelled through from first level to max.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
No.. I don't think faction change is ever going to happen.. This is one of those things where story is just going to kill it.. The companions are the biggest issue.. You can't exactly expect Elara Dorne to serve the empire again?? Kira Carsen is a child of the Imperor.. She fought all her life to break free of his hold.. She isn't going back.. What to do with them??
I think the big hurdle of data tracking and the potential release of future content based on story will always keep Faction change out of the picture. However I have a vague hope that somewhere down the road the devs may allow for a more open exchange of companions between characters of the same legacy. Even if this is as basic as just a model/voice swap. I can't quite get over the fact that a darkside Sith Trueblood Warrior has to put up with so many alien scum on their vessel and would be far more comfortable with a crew of Andronikus, Talos, Malavai, Pierce and Lord Scourge. (Of course that would be an endgame feature requiring the unlocking of all companions to be considered). I still think it's a great shame the role-kits were removed from the companions, a far better option than the current forced roles.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
That is why I said, this game is going to both live and die by story... Story on the one hand is awesome and fun to play.. But like a book, you can only read it so many times.. I think this game is to restricted in a number of ways due to story.. And voice acting..
It's one of the reasons I was asking for AC to be considered. Replayability of the different classes is pretty good, especially the first time round but by the time you get to the point of fleshing out your stable of characters to have one of each Advanced Class it gets a little stale. Unfortunately the price tag I'd attach to the AC swap would be too high to make it attractive for me to use for casual swapping... besides when I say the levelling is stale I still find it miles better than the competition.
I have a love hate relationship with the voice acting. I made a conscious decision to make sure the ACs would go male/ female so I didn't have to hear the same voice when levelling through the same story content. It alleviated some of the feeling of repetition. However, some of the voices just haven't suited my initial concept of the character and I've had to go back to the drawing board many time none more so that the Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Knight Males.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
Ok.. Idea..

What if we added a new class that could either be both Imperial or Republic.. This class can only be obtained by using an existing character.. And it can be a faction change but doesn't have to be..

WOW had deathknights.. They started at level 50, there was a small starter area, it took you through about 8 levels then you dumped in to the normal story and sent to outland..

Something like that could be done here.. Either create a completely new character start at level 40 or something.. Play 10 levels and drop them into the normal story at Makeb.. Or, their current character can become this new class all companions are lost, level is reduced to 40, you choose what faction, play your 10 level and get new companions in that time.. Start out again at lvl 50 and Makeb??
I have a vague feeling that if we ever get truly alien species to play they would be introduced like this. It gets over the hurdle of older content but still faces the problem of the need to integrate them into future content. Running dailies through Makeb, CZ-198 and Oricon really wouldn't be an issue as a Trandoshan or Wookie for all the romance arcs that are involved or the conversation needed (most if not all the quests are given by terminals at this point).

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
Meh.. I need to stop driking coffee..
I can empathize with that... I have a good case of insomnia tonight so apologise for the long post, just hope it's coherent

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
11.20.2013 , 11:15 PM | #3847
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Could you BE any more self contradictory? in the first paragraph, you want to claim that other games definition of classes "works", even when chosen at creation,because the different classes use different weapons and have different abilities. Yet, in the last paragraph, you admit that the AC's use different weapons and have different abilities. It would seem that you, as well, understand that the AC's are different classes, and simply want to "change the rules" because they do not mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented.
I'm simply trying to use SWTOR's own terms for Class, Advanced Class and Specialisation as shown on their holonet page and in game at both character creation and through out the game. While pointing out that games such as WoW don't have that additional tier of specialisation.

Can't exactly carry out a survey but I feel that those gamers that identify more with the story element will consider Advanced Class to be more like the first stage of specialisation in other games and open to an AC swap. While those gamers that focus on mechanics will focus on it being an Advanced CLASS and be less open to AC swapping. A viewpoint I've had from the outset of this discussion.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
11.20.2013 , 11:37 PM | #3848
Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
Well.. Do we really need both AC swapping and Dual spec'ing for end game flexibility.. I never understood this concept that we should have 1 character that does it all.. The entire concept of specializing seems to be completely lost.. I can understand some character flexibility as long as it remains true to what the character is.. But running to the nearest phone booth to put your super suit on is to much in my opinion.. Where do we draw the line?? Are we going to let a Jedi Sentinel change into a trooper tank?? Or a gunslinger into a sage healer?? WOW never allowed you to change classes.. Your Warlock was forever a warlock.. You could change spec.. But you were still always a warlock.. In a lot of ways I think the integrity of our class needs to be protected.. Why should a shadow be allowed to become a sage or the other way around??
I think that it's important for me to say that I am not arguing for 1 character that can do it all at the same time, but rather the flexibility to chose what role they will at a certain time and place (and not instantly and for free). I find the restriction of roles somewhat arbitrary and restrictive and directly opposed to allowing a player an element of choice.
I draw the line at Class swapping, but then Class to me in SWTOR is Bounty Hunter not Powertech or Mercenary.
To me the identity and integrity of the character is defined by the story and the companions, not by the more abstract and mechanical collection of abilities.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
To me the need for it to be permanent is because it is your characters identity.. It is who your character is at a very fundamental level.. I don't understand why people are so willing to change it.. Also what is it that some people have against a choice they make having a consequence?? Or simply living with the choices they make??
Again it's the point at which you identify with the character, for me that is at the Bounty Hunter level. This defines the story and all of the intrinsic elements of what the characters identity is. The thought of swapping ACs to me is no different than choosing to play badminton instead of tennis, I need a different bat and different rules but it's still me playing.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
What challenge is there in a game if they have the character that can do it all change into everything they will ever need, can make them into whatever they want to be and if I don't like it I can change it whenever I want??
This is a point constantly argued on the thought that if an AC swap option is put in it will be free. I have no reason to believe that would be the case. If you want to pay 5 (approx. 1,000 cartel coins a price I see as convenient and affordable for the occasional use) that often you have far more disposable income than most.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
That just doesn't seem to be a game to me.. It just seems like someone that doesn't really want to play the game, so they will make a single character and it needs to do everything.. I think people like that have lost what an RPG is.. You played D&D, you know what I am talking about..
Again the important point is that AC swapping shouldn't allow a character to do everything at once. There should be a financial cost to the decision and that would be enough to make it a considered choice rather than a whim.
I played D&D and got bored with it, it's a very limited system, feels artificial and very definitely just a Game.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
11.20.2013 , 11:50 PM | #3849
Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
Sorry.. The way you describe it just seems so.... I guess lost.. There is just no respect for your character.. I have both a sage and a shadow.. They are two separate characters..
I have plenty of respect for my character, I just don't see why that identity is so fixated on whether they happen to be using one gun or two, or standing toe to toe or firing at a distance.
For me the characters identity originates in the story and the choices they make (light/dark) not the tools they use to get the task done.

Quote: Originally Posted by MajikMyst View Post
I just don't think I could go for it if it was something that someone could do anytime they wanted.. There is little point to having a class or a spec at that point.. I mean why bother.. It is a fundamental change in the game..
I personally have never proposed for it to be free. I initially suggested the need to travel to a terminal on fleet or your ship to do it but feel for ease of use it would be more likely to be implemented as a Cartel Market consumable item.
Advanced Classes and Specialisations don't disappear, in fact there is no change to them you just have an additional avenue to explore should you so desire.
Those gamers with plenty of time and who enjoy playing the game for the levelling experience would still churn out plenty of alts (I currently have 4 bounty hunters) just because they like different looks and play styles.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
11.20.2013 , 11:52 PM | #3850
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I think it is important to recognize that the devs did not say that they do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills AT THE SAME TIME. They said they do not want a single character to be able to tank AND heal. They do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills, AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time.
Do you have an actual quote for that?