ETA on Advanced Class change?

I do not dispute that the devs could have made it clearer that your AC is your class. For example they could have had you choose at character creation. It could have been set up so that you choose your story then your class, and you just start getting skills for your class at level 10. That is all irrelevant, though, to whether or not the AC's are, in fact, different classes. In the eyes of the devs, the ones who make the rules and decide what are and what are not classes, they ARE.

I suspect more people see them as classes than are willing to actually admit that fact, for reasons already posted.

That's why you see so many trooper-commandos and trooper-vanguards if you do a /who on fleet. Oh, wait...

You DON'T see any trooper-commandos or trooper-vanguards if you do a /who on fleet. You see COMMANDOS and VANGUARDS.

At this point you are more arguing what is a "class" they could have called the skill tree "classes" and still be reasonable. IT was a design choice and they chose to call it class and advanced class.

Could have called it role, class, advanced class (skill tree selection) at which point we wouldnt be able to swap between skill trees quite as easily. I personally have no problems calling the AC the "class" since that is at which point most people refer to them as "what class' "i'm a commando, or a vanguard" and then dps/heals/tank?

Im a vanguard class and my Advanced class is shield specialist. Yes the official title of trooper etc. is "class" beating symantecs to death wont get us anywhere. We've made many points that have been summarily dismissed because responders do not deem them valid. we however, are expected to treat all their dismissals and counter points as the only valid points being made and thus should have been implemented at launch cause the devs do not know what they are doing.

you know... my trainer keeps giving me trooper skills. and inquisitor skills. and agent skills. regardless of my AC.

and a lot of those skills? i use regardless of AC.

isn't it fun.

no, I don't think developers don't know what they are doing, however, developers ARE only human and cannot think of everything at once. which is why quality of life improvements have been added to this game consistently since its been released.

isn't it fun, huh?
arguments against AC seem to be boiling down to:

1. I don't want it
2. its lazy to want it
3. it will ruin the game forevah!
4. I had to reroll to play different AC and so should you! how dare you want more flexibility when I didn't have any?

fun fact. I've been playing since early access.
back then? we didn't have legacy perks. you basically had similar experience to f2p when it comes to sprint and vehicles. and those vehicles and the training for them? cost much MUCH higher. and there were no handy cartel mounts you could buy for 10k credits or less. and CE/digital deluxe speeder? was stuck at 90%

yet look at the game now. and you know what? its better and MORE FUN for it.

you used to have to go to the fleet or capital city to respec and it cost credits. more and more each time you respecced. now with legacy perl - you can respec anywhere, anytime and it doesn't cost you anything extra as a subscriber.

you used to have to gear one character at a time. and now? you can just send mods over with legacy gear. you used to be stuck without a healer on most classes until you were close to lvl 40. now? you can have one (or tank if you'd like) at lvl 10 with Treek.

contrary to your belief? it makes the game more fun. look at how popular double xp weekends are? sure some people don't like them, but if you look at complaints? all they want is to be able to opt out. vast majority couldn't care less if someone else has easier faster time leveling, as long as they are not forced into it.

no one is forcing you to change AC. all you are doing is arguing against OTHER people having that option and for what? a fear that some bad player may continue being bad and ninja looter will continue ninjalooting?

One example, and a very good one at that. That, IMO, would have put all of this to bed.
I agree.

Actually it is the opposite IMO...it is irrelevant as to whether or not the devs view them as classes..they could view them as turnips, that does not mean players will see it that way.

They could call speeders space fighters, light sabers rifles.....you get my gist. Players define whether or not it is a class, not the devs....and it's obvious by this thread that they didn't do a very good job of making ACs FEEL like classes, like they should have.

Case in point...I have not seen one single request for an actual base class change. Not one (note, that does not mean there hasn't been one)...and I pose that is because TROOPER FEELS LIKE A CLASS.

So does Smuggler, Agent, etc. Maybe not so much for Jedi and Sith, but still better than ACs.

In fact, the one time they could have put it to bed, said straight out "AC is your class" they said on three different occasions (paraphrasing here) "....specialized careers you can choose to enhance your gameplay experience.....we see them as fundamentally different class designs......advanced class change will likely happen.

This is NOT how you clear things up. In fact, that makes it worse for those that do not feel it is a class.

They COULD put this to bed with one single statement. That's all it would take....come out and say AC is your class, period. Why they have not done so is beyond me.

IMO you should as you said...choose your AC from the beginning, all references to your "storyline" removed from things like your trainer, storyline, etc.....you are referred to by your class name, which would be your current AC.

Bioware created this problem, and IMO only Bioware can fix it.

As noted, faction (and base class and gender) is (are) integrated into the story and companions. AC does not affect the story or companions.

I think they will add an AC change thing for a fee, say 2-3k CC, and in the same breath, they will also allow for dual specialization, which would probably cost around 1-1.5k CC. I already see these things coming, it's just a matter of time along with the proper target date for it. I wouldn't doubt it if we see these two things added in the first quarter of 2014, along with more content added.

Last time on this particular hamster wheel.

You can't use a different games definition of class, or a very old quote from a dev that no longer works on the game to justify your definition of class in SWTOR. All elements that refer to class in SWTOR are very explicit on what class is. Just as they are equally explicit on what Advanced Class is. You only have to look at the Holonet to see their distinction on Classes.

You log in to the game to create a new character and it asks you first for Faction and then to choose a Class (Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor, Imperial Agent, Bounty Hunter, Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Smuggler, Republic Trooper). If you are lucky and look at the elements at the top it gives you a brief synopsis of the two available Advanced Classes for selection at level 10, although at this point it does not mention that will be a permanent choice.

When you go purchase new abilities at level up you go to a Class trainer that has a core set of Class Abilities. If you chose Powertech you will still be getting Bounty Hunter abilities as you level.

If Advanced Classes were truly fundamental class designs why do they share so many common elements? I am not talking about the story or companions that is absolutely the same, but many core rotational abilities are shared. That 'fundamental' distinction between how an Advanced Class is played can be just as severe, if not more so, depending on the specialisation you choose.

There's little difference between a Rage specced Marauder or Juggernaut, most of the abilities used come from shared class abilities... Force Charge, Smash, Retaliation, Force Scream, Ravage, Obliterate and Force Crush are all shared Edit: I forgot to mention they also share Assault, Vicious Slash, Force Choke, Vicious Throw, Sabre Ward, Intimidating Roar, Disruption and Unleash]. There is a little difference in how the two build their initial rage and they have a few other unique skills between the Advanced Classes that favour specific specialisations (Juggernaut has taunts for Immortal (Tank) tree).

There's a larger difference between a Powertech specced in Shield Tech as opposed to Advanced Prototype. Different stance and larger difference in rotation. Although Rocket punch and Rail Shot features heavily in nearly every build for Bounty Hunter I have seen both Powertech and Mercenary.

They already allow for Dual Specialisation, in fact it's better than that as you have as many specialisations as you want. If you are a subscriber and have purchased the 'Field Respecialisation' (200k credits) this can be done virtually anywhere at no cost.

[Edit: Interesting to note that this shows the Devs are willing to modify in games systems from how they were initially implemented to how they work now. At launch you could only respecialise at a few locations (on fleet and Capitol World) and it cost you more and more till you got the weekly reset.]

Of course you have to remember the spec build and move around a couple of abilities but this isn't that hard to do.

I would like to see the functionality added to remember those specs on character by character basis and also be able to store Keybinds to individual specs as well. The ability to store custom keybinds doesn't just benefit those that would want to swap between specs but also those that have several alts that they keep track of. It's a shame that it can't use a similar system of storage as the current UI customisation feature.

You do a good job of illustrating this for those who cry "But people who change their AC won't know how to play their class!"