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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
10.25.2013 , 09:54 AM | #3361
I couldn't find any new ideas, or new pros/cons, so the list remains unchanged for now.

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants.


Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 3

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 4

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 9

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

Option 10

Level 40 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 11

No AC change allowed.



And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.


PROS

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.
2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.
3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.
4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.


CONS

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.
2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.
3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.
4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.
5) This will likely further demean AC choice.
6) Could cause FOTM issues.
7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.



I am willing to begrudgingly support option 1, option 7 but would prefer option 11. The idea of option 7 has some appeal...you have to level an AC to max level to get a legacy unlock you can use to switch to that AC inside the class for another character account wide. That still give AC meaning IMO.

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm somewhat willing to support 1 and 7. I personally do not feel option 10 is a good idea as I think it would possibly have a negative impact on the game, more likely than an early change.

I would also add what I would like to see happen with respect to AC.

1) Bioware would come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that AC IS YOUR CLASS.

2) Make AC choice mandatory at level 10, move all abilities under the AC heading in the abilities pane and remove the base class header, move all trainable abilities from that point forward under the AC header on the trainer.

3) Remove all references in the game to your base class that can be removed once you choose your AC.

4) Add a small quest line at max level that is AC specific, where they refer to your AC directly.


IMO this would make the choice more meaningful.

I do think, however, that Dual Spec would be fine.

Dual spec - Allowed when you choose your spec onward, but open use is only allowed after you conclude your class story.

Before your story conclusion dual spec would be restricted to use inside heroics, flashpoints, operations and warzones UNLESS the groupfinder tool allows you a free spec swap while qued to fill missing roles. It would be a permanent unlock feature, allowing you to save a particular setup...it saves point allocation and bar locations of specials but not gear setup. it would have a one hour cooldown, and would cost either EC or CC.

After conclusion of your storyline you are unlocked to spec swap any time you wish.

This does not remove the cost of respecing...only saves the spec loadouts, positions of abilities on action bars, etc....you can still choose to forgo the dual spec route and manually redeploy your points and abilities.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.25.2013 , 09:55 AM | #3362
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
1) The need to buy/acquire new gear would BENEFIT the game. Crafters would sell more, GF queues would have more players who need their new gear and WZ's would have players regrinding new gear.

2) That's an assumption, not a fact. I'd argue that any player willing to change their AC, is likely a better player than your average player because they are probably swapping for a reason.

3) I'd argue that the ability to swap AC's would ENHANCE the connection to the character because you'd be on ONE toon vs swapping to alts.

4) Replayablity? It's 100% the EXACT SAME experience AC to AC. This has NO impact on that at all.
None of those are valid reasons. I have decided.

See, I can do it, too.

1. Crafters would sell more? Are you for real? Do you expect us to believe that? Do you think we do not see all the threads about how useless crafting is due to the CM? The CM will likely not even see any benefit from a player re-rolling due to the collections interface. That player can just create a new set of armor, weapon(s) and crystals for free, most likely.

2. I'd argue that most players wanting to change class are NOT better players. I'd argue that most players wanting to change class want to do so for one of two reasons. 1. They wanted to level easy mode, say as marauder, and then change classes for the role they want to play at end game, say juggernaut to tank.

3. I'd argue that class changes would decrease the connection to the player because although the name and appearance stays the same, the character changes. A class change is a character change.

4. The wonderful thing about this game is the various decisions that we have to make. Although the basic story may be the same, it is possible to drastically change the leveling experience by changing the decisions.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.25.2013 , 09:58 AM | #3363
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Ok, so you just want to make it punitive. Got it. I'm actually trying to support an option that would IMPROVE the player experience, not punish players.
Still not a valid reason.

What you desire would adversely affect those against class changes. I'm trying to support an option that will not have an adverse impact on those who prefer that some things be earned.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
10.25.2013 , 09:58 AM | #3364
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
None of those are valid reasons. I have decided.

See, I can do it, too.
Yeah Rat...you're a real winner huh?! It's obvious with this you're simply trolling and I'm done feeding you.
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DOHboy's Avatar


DOHboy
10.25.2013 , 09:58 AM | #3365
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
1) The need to buy/acquire new gear would BENEFIT the game. Crafters would sell more, GF queues would have more players who need their new gear and WZ's would have players regrinding new gear.

2) That's an assumption, not a fact. I'd argue that any player willing to change their AC, is likely a better player than your average player because they are probably swapping for a reason.

3) I'd argue that the ability to swap AC's would ENHANCE the connection to the character because you'd be on ONE toon vs swapping to alts.

4) Replayablity? It's 100% the EXACT SAME experience AC to AC. This has NO impact on that at all.
well
1) people already complain about the grind and gear costs, depending on when the swap occurs, char may be virtually unplayable unless significant investment is spent.
2) Again that is an assumption on your part, granted it is somewhere in the middle, but a person who is simply bored with their AC and swaps to a new one and has little or no practice does not mean they are skilled. Even swapping trees can be difficult for some.

3) is subjective at best depending on your view point I guess

4) the experience is not 100% the same. Leveling a sage healer is about the exact opposite of leveling a shadow tank/dps. As would be a scoundrel dps (more melee/stealth) vs say a gunslinger (ranged). They are vastly different play styles.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.25.2013 , 10:00 AM | #3366
Quote: Originally Posted by mdob View Post
For better or worse, 6 of 8 ACs has the ability to do this today, without any leveling experience.

Talent trees evolved to provide more customization on a per class basis.

Allowing AC changes would just be the next evolution of that.

The biggest difference between ACs is playing a melee class versus a ranged class.

I would suggest that people tend to enjoy playing what they are good at, so unless you're good at both, you won't switch repeatedly.

At minimum, you should be able to switch your AC before you hit 50 because you may not even know you are better at melee than ranged or vice versa.
If you think going DPS to tank or heals gets ugly fast, imagine going from heals to tank, or tank to heals. Thankfully, we do not have to worry about that right now. We will, though, if they ever decide to allow class changes.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.25.2013 , 10:03 AM | #3367
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Yeah Rat...you're a real winner huh?! It's obvious with this you're simply trolling and I'm done feeding you.
I'm not trolling. I just decided to play your game, with the change that I have not just said "invalid" and left it at that.

If you are ready to accept that those against class changes have valid reasons, even if you do not agree with them, then perhaps we can move on to having an actual discussion.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
10.25.2013 , 10:47 AM | #3368
Quote: Originally Posted by DOHboy View Post
swapping AC is not a cosmetic thing. You can't go from a dual wielding sentinel to a single bladed guardian with a shield off hand at the flip of a switch. Nor would I expect a healing Commando with an Assault Cannon to switch AC and then become a blaster rifle vanguard tank. People think its just cosmetic, people also think its super expensive just swapping out gear mods and armor, or fully augmenting gear. Now take that with the AC change and your swapping out basically every piece of armor you have, fully augmenting it, new relics, new companion gear. People think its purely a cosmetic change, that only thing it involves is the skill tree.

Take into account skill of the player involved (people complain enough about bad tanks) now take into consideration a dps sage swapping to shadow tanking, or dps commando to vanguard tank. dps vanguard to commando heals. DPS to DPS swap is probably fine, DPS to tank/heals tends to get ugly quickly.

You would basically be starting from scratch which is why it would just be easier to swing an alt.
I currently play a Powertech as my main, due to the activities I take part in I have a full set of gear for Tanking (off hand shield), a set for running dailies (dps offhand generator) and a set put aside for PvP (although with bolster I'd probably be better off in my PvE gear as it has a higher rating).

The bottom line is that the game already requires ACs that have DPS -> Tank to have a full set of gear for both. If you have DPS -> Heal you can probably get away with the same gear (I tend to stack Alacrity and Power which works well enough in both roles). Even a DPS -> DPS transition may warrant a full gear swap (Marauder using an Anihilation or Carnage build used to need crit and surge, the Rage build can get away with just power and surge due to the auto-crit).

The learning curve is not so steep. And to be honest not one that you tend to learn while you level anyway. It's only once you start to get the full skill rotation and hit the endgame difficulty barrier and taking part in group content you start to need to learn to play. The players that have issues coping with this barrier aren't going to be able to complete endgame (NiM) content on their current build.3

You step back to level an alt and you take your foot of the credit earning potential. Depending on how often you feel the need to upgrade your gear as you level you have the potential to enter a negative equity where you have to supply the character with credits from a high level alt to keep them viable. Just stepped back onto my low level (23) Mercenary and levelled so fast with the xp buffs that over 7 levels managed to clear only 10k profit after training costs had been paid for. Levelling an alt is not a 'cheaper option' it is a very expensive option.

A high level character can do a full run of weeklies and earn a million credits (takes about 3-5 hours depending on focus and ability), that's a good chunk towards buying mods/ augments. Not to mention the 180+ basic commendations towards level 69 gear.

SWTOR is reasonably cheap to get a semi-decent set of gear together for entry to higher level endgame content. The cost of gaining a new set of gear certainly isn't an impediment to providing an AC swap function.

Oh and why do you need to gear up a companion again?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
10.25.2013 , 11:00 AM | #3369
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
I currently play a Powertech as my main, due to the activities I take part in I have a full set of gear for Tanking (off hand shield), a set for running dailies (dps offhand generator) and a set put aside for PvP (although with bolster I'd probably be better off in my PvE gear as it has a higher rating).

The bottom line is that the game already requires ACs that have DPS -> Tank to have a full set of gear for both. If you have DPS -> Heal you can probably get away with the same gear (I tend to stack Alacrity and Power which works well enough in both roles). Even a DPS -> DPS transition may warrant a full gear swap (Marauder using an Anihilation or Carnage build used to need crit and surge, the Rage build can get away with just power and surge due to the auto-crit).

The learning curve is not so steep. And to be honest not one that you tend to learn while you level anyway. It's only once you start to get the full skill rotation and hit the endgame difficulty barrier and taking part in group content you start to need to learn to play. The players that have issues coping with this barrier aren't going to be able to complete endgame (NiM) content on their current build.3

You step back to level an alt and you take your foot of the credit earning potential. Depending on how often you feel the need to upgrade your gear as you level you have the potential to enter a negative equity where you have to supply the character with credits from a high level alt to keep them viable. Just stepped back onto my low level (23) Mercenary and levelled so fast with the xp buffs that over 7 levels managed to clear only 10k profit after training costs had been paid for. Levelling an alt is not a 'cheaper option' it is a very expensive option.

A high level character can do a full run of weeklies and earn a million credits (takes about 3-5 hours depending on focus and ability), that's a good chunk towards buying mods/ augments. Not to mention the 180+ basic commendations towards level 69 gear.

SWTOR is reasonably cheap to get a semi-decent set of gear together for entry to higher level endgame content. The cost of gaining a new set of gear certainly isn't an impediment to providing an AC swap function.

Oh and why do you need to gear up a companion again?
The cost of leveling certainly isn't an impediment to requiring that that new class actually be leveled and earned. . It is not a valid reason to allow class changes.


Nowhere is it written that if you level an alt to play that other class that you can ONLY play that alt. You can do the dailies and earn those credits with your high level main, even if it is a class you do not want to play, and then log onto the alt to continue leveling the class you DO want to play. You get the best of both worlds, the credit earning potential of the main and the new class you want to play.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
10.25.2013 , 11:07 AM | #3370
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I'm not trolling. I just decided to play your game, with the change that I have not just said "invalid" and left it at that.

If you are ready to accept that those against class changes have valid reasons, even if you do not agree with them, then perhaps we can move on to having an actual discussion.
Except you haven't presented ONE valid reason arguing against this - when asked to, you refused. There's no discussing this with you when you refuse to make an argument against it...you're just "against" it...for nor apparent reason.
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