ETA on Advanced Class change?

You're in this thread just as much as I am. I could ask you the same.

I mean specifically why you care so much about TUXs' playing habits. I think we all know why we're in this thread.

You don't get to define what is and is not a class. The devs define what is and is not a class. The devs have stated that they treat advance classes as they own independent class. Even if they change the mechanics, that definition would still hold true.

Asking a question of someone is not "caring so much", its having a discussion. Why do you care so much about who I ask what?

Right, I go by words. "Class." "Advanced class." Different words. AC is clearly a subset of class, but not the exact same thing. Just as all dogs are mammals, but "mammal" and "dog" are not exactly the same thing.

Why do you care about why I care?

I go by words to. I go by words the devs used to say that they treat advanced classes as their own class. I also by the words used, by the devs when they explained the reason they went the AC route is because they wanted to do 16 classes but didn't have the time or budget for 16 storylines.

Now your just trollin

Right now I have at least a level 55 of each AC (counting rep and imp versions as one), EXCEPT for the Marauder/Sentinel. And that is the best example there is in my opinion.

At least 90% of all players I meet that are on Knights/Warriors are idiots. This is no exaggeration as it's closer to 99%. Maybe I just have bad luck with them ant it'll turn around to maybe 50% at best, but then if an AC change hits that 50% will jump up to 90%, and that's just 1 class.

My experiences between my maxed knight & Juggernaut compared to the slightly below mid level Marauder I have is that the play style is VERY DIFFERENT. I would be terrible at best if I had to change my Juggernaut to Marauder and was granted the best gear and all the skills, I would lack the know-how to effectively play him, and that would hurt the entire group I'm in.

It would be different if I already had a Marauder or Sentinel at that level, which brings us to my very simple suggestion...

It's not about liking/disliking an AC, it's about being able to use it. It's not about you or me, it's about the 90% that aren't in the top or bottom 5%... and about the 5% in the bottom as well.

If you want to know if you like an AC the best way to know is to make a new character of that AC and learn it one skill at a time.

I know myself that if I were to change the AC of my Juggernaut to Marauder I would start by getting new gear BEFORE the change, others wouldn't even think about doing that. With the Makeb mods I'd start by making a rating 140 outfit ready for use unlss I could get my hands on other stuff without much efford. I would also need a sizable amount of credits ready to learn all the skills.

After all that I would start to practice doing solo-content, I would as would some others, but a lot of people would not! A lot of people would probably not take any preparations.

That's why I suggested a requirement to show people actually did the work to get themselves familiar with that advanced class, but you think that's a silly idea. And since you think that's a silly idea and don't want it, yeah, lets call this a shortcut because it feels like pro-AC-change people are just looking for that.

THANK YOU, that's the point I made when bringing up one of my main concerns. People will expect to be able to jump right into action and be just as good as they were as the other class and that their gear & skills come with that.

And like I said, we're not talking about the top 5% who know to get prepared, we are talking about those seemingly unable or unwilling to read. As well as those who think AC means nothing. Not saying it's 95% of the players, as you don't need to be in the top 5% to have a brain (nor does thinking you're in the top 5% put you in the clear).

I'm not saying I'm in the top 5% in terms of mastering content, but it does feel I am in the top 5% of knowing what I can do, which is needing less than the recommended gear (within limits), but also knowing not to jump mindlessly into hard content of things I haven't even done on normal.

People will always need help, but at those levels that help should be more like "I'm trying to be even better at what I do, can we please not skip the bonus boss?" or "I would appreciate a few pointers for someone else who has been doing this on another character as I'm having trouble managing resources at times." NOT "Why is our Juggernaut tank wearing Marauder damage gear?".

Recently I am running more lower level content, if you do that you really see a difference in what learning people need. You will see a lot of people that will never learn, that do not want to learn. Those of those people that still learn by doing will be the worst of the worst once they get to change AC.

Thank you both for showing there are people that can still think beyond individuals.
Thank you for understanding more about human nature and the lack of common sense in the masses.

Just because people posting here may be able to handle AC changes or know themselves good enough to not use them if offered, the braindead masses would and would then force their mistakes onto others and demand compensation for not being able to understand the repercussions of their own actions.

They treat ACs as their own class. 'Nuff said. I might treat someone like my son even if he is not my son.

If I am, so are you and Ratajak and anyone else who insists that ACs are classes as strongly as I insist they are not. Unless you define trolling as "Disagreeing with Soluss."

Im not talking about your argument with the AC swap, when I refer to you trollin. Its about the "why do you care" "why do you care that I care" crap. That's just off topic trollin nonsense.

As for the first part.... I notice you chopped out the second part of my statement. The reason they went the AC route is because they wanted to do 16 classes but could not do 16 story lines. This is the only reason that people don't pick their class at level 0. They are classes. The devs have defined them as classes. Call them what you want but you are wrong.

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants.


Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 3

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 4

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 9

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

Option 10

Level 40 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 11

No AC change allowed.



And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.


PROS

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.
2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.
3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.
4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

CONS

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.
2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.
3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.
4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.
5) This will likely further demean AC choice.
6) Could cause FOTM issues.
7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.


I am willing to begrudgingly support option 1, option 7 but would prefer option 11. The idea of option 7 has some appeal...you have to level an AC to max level to get a legacy unlock you can use to switch to that AC inside the class for another character account wide. That still give AC meaning IMO.

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm somewhat willing to support 1 and 7. I personally do not feel option 10 is a good idea as I think it would possibly have a negative impact on the game, more likely than an early change.

I would also add what I would like to see happen with respect to AC.

1) Bioware would come out and publicly state, in no uncertain terms, that AC IS YOUR CLASS.

2) Make AC choice mandatory at level 10, move all abilities under the AC heading in the abilities pane and remove the base class header, move all trainable abilities from that point forward under the AC header on the trainer.

3) Remove all references in the game to your base class that can be removed once you choose your AC.

4) Add a small quest line at max level that is AC specific, where they refer to your AC directly.

IMO this would make the choice more meaningful.

I do think, however, that Dual Spec would be fine.

Dual spec - Allowed when you choose your spec onward, but open use is only allowed after you conclude your class story.

Before your story conclusion dual spec would be restricted to use inside heroics, flashpoints, operations and warzones UNLESS the groupfinder tool allows you a free spec swap while qued to fill missing roles. It would be a permanent unlock feature, allowing you to save a particular setup...it saves point allocation and bar locations of specials but not gear setup. it would have a one hour cooldown, and would cost either EC or CC.

After conclusion of your storyline you are unlocked to spec swap any time you wish.

This does not remove the cost of respecing...only saves the spec loadouts, positions of abilities on action bars, etc....you can still choose to forgo the dual spec route and manually redeploy your points and abilities.

Please let me know if the new option 10 is accurate as folks have requested it. If not I will adjust it accordingly.