Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
06.24.2013 , 09:03 PM | #1881
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
Even with an AC change, as long as it operates under the restrictions I outlined (fixed location, timed lockout, reasonable cost), you would not have a class that could cover all roles.

Bounty hunter, Powertech can Tank OR DPS, Mercenary can Heal OR DPS.

At no point would my idea of an AC change allow a Bounty Hunter to Tank AND DPS AND Heal at the same time.

The utility of the class is extended the power is not.

Allowing class changes would still allow a single character to fill all three roles, which goes directly against the devs design intents.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
06.24.2013 , 09:07 PM | #1882
Updated with new options suggested, no new pros and cons I could find mentioned by anyone.


Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 3

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 4

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.


Option 9

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

Option 10

No AC change allowed.



And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.


PROS

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.
2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.
3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.
4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.



CONS

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.
2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.
3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.
4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.
5) This will likely further demean AC choice.
6) Could cause FOTM issues.
7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.



I have decided to support option 1, option 7 but would prefer option 10. I like the idea of option 7...you have to level an AC to max level to get a legacy unlock you can use to switch to that AC inside the class for another character account wide.

I still prefer no AC change, but I'm open to support 1 and 7.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
06.24.2013 , 09:10 PM | #1883
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Allowing class changes would still allow a single character to fill all three roles, which goes directly against the devs design intents.
In all fairness so did cross class armor appearance, which they very clearly dictated was against their design intent and would never be allowed. They wanted a players class to be visually represented by gear.

That, of course, is no longer the case.

Just something to point out.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
06.24.2013 , 09:25 PM | #1884
My Option as formatted for LordArtemis


Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
06.24.2013 , 09:39 PM | #1885
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Allowing class changes would still allow a single character to fill all three roles, which goes directly against the devs design intents.
There are many things that have come to pass that go directly against the devs original design intent. I don't think they ever thought they'd need to implement a cartel shop and F2P but here we are.

The whole idea of a forum is an open discussion of features, are they working as intended, could they be improved, what would we the players like to be considered.

The main issue with Advanced class change is to retain the same power within the class and not increase it or alter the spread of abilities available within a class. The biggest threat to power balance within class design as I understand it is to allow for Tanking and Healing abilities at the same time. I have made sure any of my suggestions to the idea of an AC change avoid this scenario.

I am open to discussion but I feel implementing an Advanced Class change in this way makes it a viable prospect for medium duration to permanent changes.
This may appeal to players wanting to try out a new play style (and lets be honest most only come into effect once you have a full rotation available somewhere in the late 40s) while not abandoning their character.
It may appeal to roleplayers who consider the class storyline to be the history of their character and don't want to see it happening again, they may want to play their Bounty Hunter as a bodyguard type alternating between a healing role and a tanking role (but never able to do both at the same time).
It may also appeal to hardcore gamers who burnout and want to change their game for a while without stepping completely away from guild activities (still able to participate in end game flashpoints, probably not OPs).

In short it covers a lot of bases in giving players a little more flexibility to their character without throwing it out of the window and have to level a new one from scratch, repeating all the exact same content again.

You may find this difficult to comprehend but games should be a fun pursuit and something done as a leisure activity, not a chore to be pursued as a second job and woe betide the person that makes a poor decision in their class choice 3 months back.

(edit: on typing the time scale at 3 months I'm sure I'll get a lot of comments to the effect of 'Level faster'. I'll take my friends 7~12 hours a week as a guide and my first characters 6 days playtime to max level, that puts an average time to level a new character at 3 months (optimum with no unforeseen circumstances), I see many players being in this sort of timeframe. Oh, and double xp weekends are no real use to either of us as family comes first and weekends are family time)

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
06.24.2013 , 09:57 PM | #1886
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
My Option as formatted for LordArtemis


Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).
I'll add it to my post for now and it will be in the list from now on. Thanks.

branmakmuffin's Avatar


branmakmuffin
06.24.2013 , 10:14 PM | #1887
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
The main issue with Advanced class change is to retain the same power within the class and not increase it or alter the spread of abilities available within a class. The biggest threat to power balance within class design as I understand it is to allow for Tanking and Healing abilities at the same time. I have made sure any of my suggestions to the idea of an AC change avoid this scenario.
The game's mechanics prevent this. No need to implement anything new along those lines.

Hizoka's Avatar


Hizoka
06.24.2013 , 10:14 PM | #1888
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
Okay I've bolded the bit I don't understand.

With an AC change you are not getting a new character, you are altering an existing characters skill set.
With an AC change you are not getting any BIS gear.
With an AC change you are not getting any additional character slots, inventory slots, or class buffs.

The only aspect of the game an AC change would facilitate is a reduction in time to accomplish the same feat of levelling a second character. While I can understand a certain reluctance to allow a second wave of players a chance to accomplish something you have achieved but in less time, you have to accept this is pretty much a part of the MMO lifecycle. All that time spent grinding end game gear prior to 2.0 pretty much wasted a new player can get that stuff (or better in some cases) pretty easily.

Still at the end of the day you can't use ability set A AND B, you can still only use ability set A OR B. The class utility has increased not its power.

Even then it's more about supporting a player base and allowing them more ways of playing the character they have identified with.

It's not really a point I've gone into in much detail as it is very subjective. With Bioware's focus on storytelling, the full voice over and the cinematic cutscenes, people who have identified strongly with their character on the first play through start to struggle on the second playthrough. Now this is somewhat of a problem on any class with regards to the world quests but at least the class quests give some sense of identity and relate directly to the companions, another integral aspect of the PvE experience. Take that away and your first character is lessened.

Allowing for AC changing helps to forge a stronger sense of connection/ ownership with the character and a greater chance the player will try out a new style of play rather than put the game down altogether.

While much is made is made of the difference between class and advanced class, Bioware have chosen to blur the lines significantly with their choice to blend the two Advanced classes around one core class/ story. In many peoples mind a Powertech is just a Mercenary who uses one pistol and carries a shield generator, or a Mercenary is just a Powertech that uses two guns. This is the power of the story. It convinces you the character is more than just a set of arbitrary mechanics.

While I understand how some other MMOs have set up their Class structure I feel it a shame to want SWTOR to follow it as rigorously.

I honestly feel the Class Story forms the core class experience. For example this would be the Bounty Hunter. The Advanced Class is a subset that is a game mechanic to keep two skill sets exclusive from each other at any particular time (you really don't want tank and heal abilities on the action bar at the same time) so you have the tanking abilities with the Powertech and the healing abilities with the Mercenary. Both Advanced classes have further skill trees that allow them to fine tune their role/ playstyle.

I see the advanced class as a form of specialisation and a step that should be retrainable at a slightly higher cost than that of a regular respec.
it is a class change. You are getting a class YOU DID NOT LEVEL at max level. That is a pay to win option. It does not matter how you see it the devs (the people who matter) see it as different classes.

ON your PT vs Merc idea... a PT is a melee class regardless of what tree you sec and merc is a ranged class regardless of how you spec. That is a fundamental play style change. If you have ever played a melee class you would know it takes a much more attentive person to play one then it takes to play a ranged class. Merc and PTs do not play anything remotely alike.

The story excuse is such a pathetic one. This is one of the only MMOs that actually has multiple stories. So just claiming you have different stories so that is your class is ignorant at best. What defines the class is HOW it plays and no 2 ACs play the exact same.

branmakmuffin's Avatar


branmakmuffin
06.24.2013 , 10:20 PM | #1889
Quote: Originally Posted by Hizoka View Post
it is a class change. You are getting a class YOU DID NOT LEVEL at max level. That is a pay to win option. It does not matter how you see it the devs (the people who matter) see it as different classes.
It is not a new class, it is not P2W. You can keep repeating both of those until the game grinds to a halt but neither will ever be true.

We can assume you will happily accept it if the game is changed to allow it, because if the devs (the people who matter) make the change, that will be how the game will work and it won't matter how you see it.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
06.24.2013 , 10:26 PM | #1890
This is one of the reasons why I kind of like the legacy unlock AC change option suggested. You have to level that AC to max level to get the unlock...so you do earn that AC.

Like any other unlock, you have to earn it first before you can use it across your account.