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Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
07.07.2013 , 04:24 AM | #291
Quote: Originally Posted by AwkwardGinger View Post
You are arguing with two of the single most intelligent and helpful people on this forum.
I don't care about intelligence.

I care about playability.

Since I have a slight Dyscalculia, I'll NEVER listen to all of these mathematical outcomes.

ALL that matters to me is playability.

And my intuition is probably a bit more developed than in a lot of other people. You have deficites in one area, but train another area to outweigh that. That's why blind people have often quite acute senses.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
07.07.2013 , 04:39 AM | #292
I had an other idea which would be a change in Kinetic Bulwark. The talent would be something similar to this :
Activating Kinetic Ward will now grant you Kinetic Bulwark, which will make unshielded attacks have it damage reduced by 10%. Last 8 seconds.

First of all, these 10% are multplicative damage reduction, not additive. Basically, that's a weak shield for when shield didn't work. In my original idea, it wasn't a 8s buff but 8-stack buffq that are used when receiving an unshielded attatck, but I thought it would go beyond my mathematical concept.
So here why I think it could be good :

If I take these value for Shadows mitigation : 35% DR, 50% shield chances, 31% absorb, 5% average bulwark, then average damage will be : (shielded part is in green, unshielded part is in red)

65% * 50% + 65% * 64% * 50% = 53.3%

If I change bulwark, removing the 5% of average absorb bonus, and consider it it will be up only half of the time (8 sec every 15) so that instead of having 50% of plain unshielded attatcks we have 25% of these, and 25% with Bulwark, then average damage will be : (same colors than before, but "half-shieled" part in yellow)

65% * 90% * 25% + 65% * 25% + 65% * 69% * 50% = 53.3%

So if you just randomly throw Kinetic Ward each 15 seconds with this new Bulwark, the average mitigation doesn't change.
The overall profile of Shadows don't change. It doesn't make the RNG deaths suddenly disappear. There will be instants when the Shadow will still be as spiky as now. But these instant will only be half of the time, so it will drastically lower the chance of a RNG death. And that's it if you throw it "randomly".

If you use it while aiming at critical instants, when the boss hits very hard, if you have lucky RNG and all attacks are shielded, it will be as good as now, but if you have bad RNG, let's say none of attacks are shieled, since the -10% damage will work it will be like if you have 6.5% of DR bonus putting the 35% DR shadow at a virtual 41.5% DR.
In average situations (50% of shielded attacks), during the Bulwark duration the "virtual DR" will be somewhat equivalent to the 38% of DR with the old Bulwark :

65% * 90% * 50% + 65% * 69% * 50% = 51.675%
62% * 50% + 62% * 64% * 50% = 51.8%

This change will shine for when bosses have big attacks that are not avoidable, and not shieldable.

I think my idea is half-way between the "status quo" and Kitru's idea. I don't adresss spikiness all the time but half of the time, and let players a chance to make things even better by buying themeself a very efficient insurrance in critical instants, and letting spikes have a chance to happen when it's the least dangerous. And if we consider that the boss has a pretty "flat" damage profile, then RNG death will still have a drastically lowering of chances to occur.

helpmewin's Avatar


helpmewin
07.07.2013 , 05:06 AM | #293
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
I had an other idea which would be a change in Kinetic Bulwark. The talent would be something similar to this :
Activating Kinetic Ward will now grant you Kinetic Bulwark, which will make unshielded attacks have it damage reduced by 10%. Last 8 seconds.

First of all, these 10% are multplicative damage reduction, not additive. Basically, that's a weak shield for when shield didn't work. In my original idea, it wasn't a 8s buff but 8-stack buffq that are used when receiving an unshielded attatck, but I thought it would go beyond my mathematical concept.
So here why I think it could be good :

If I take these value for Shadows mitigation : 35% DR, 50% shield chances, 31% absorb, 5% average bulwark, then average damage will be : (shielded part is in green, unshielded part is in red)

65% * 50% + 65% * 64% * 50% = 53.3%

If I change bulwark, removing the 5% of average absorb bonus, and consider it it will be up only half of the time (8 sec every 15) so that instead of having 50% of plain unshielded attatcks we have 25% of these, and 25% with Bulwark, then average damage will be : (same colors than before, but "half-shieled" part in yellow)

65% * 90% * 25% + 65% * 25% + 65% * 69% * 50% = 53.3%

So if you just randomly throw Kinetic Ward each 15 seconds with this new Bulwark, the average mitigation doesn't change.
The overall profile of Shadows don't change. It doesn't make the RNG deaths suddenly disappear. There will be instants when the Shadow will still be as spiky as now. But these instant will only be half of the time, so it will drastically lower the chance of a RNG death. And that's it if you throw it "randomly".

If you use it while aiming at critical instants, when the boss hits very hard, if you have lucky RNG and all attacks are shielded, it will be as good as now, but if you have bad RNG, let's say none of attacks are shieled, since the -10% damage will work it will be like if you have 6.5% of DR bonus putting the 35% DR shadow at a virtual 41.5% DR.
In average situations (50% of shielded attacks), during the Bulwark duration the "virtual DR" will be somewhat equivalent to the 38% of DR with the old Bulwark :

65% * 90% * 50% + 65% * 69% * 50% = 51.675%
62% * 50% + 62% * 64% * 50% = 51.8%

This change will shine for when bosses have big attacks that are not avoidable, and not shieldable.

I think my idea is half-way between the "status quo" and Kitru's idea. I don't adresss spikiness all the time but half of the time, and let players a chance to make things even better by buying themeself a very efficient insurrance in critical instants, and letting spikes have a chance to happen when it's the least dangerous. And if we consider that the boss has a pretty "flat" damage profile, then RNG death will still have a drastically lowering of chances to occur.
I really don't understand why need all this calculating? All of you are trying to invent wheel. Suggestion is very simple - just increase DR(mb increase DR when using ability on X sec) or HP, or both if necessary. Delete this, give that...brrr. Nice u have 35% DR in PvE we have 31.73% in full conq. Smash dmg 7k-8k crit ,dispatch if not shielded 7.5 - 7.9k crit.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
07.07.2013 , 05:46 AM | #294
Quote: Originally Posted by helpmewin View Post
I really don't understand why need all this calculating? All of you are trying to invent wheel. Suggestion is very simple - just increase DR(mb increase DR when using ability on X sec) or HP, or both if necessary. Delete this, give that...brrr. Nice u have 35% DR in PvE we have 31.73% in full conq. Smash dmg 7k-8k crit ,dispatch if not shielded 7.5 - 7.9k crit.
In order to prove that the average mitigation won't go skyrocketing, and show practical numbers of optimal use.
Shadows are in situation where they can't just be given something without being taken something else. Shadows are tanks that have a very good average survivability, but their problem is that it's only "average". We can't just give them something more, because in order to make them playable when bad things happens, you'd overtune them for average or good situations.

And yes, in PvE you can be near of 35% DR. In PvP you're alreay near 32%, PvE sets gives you 2% from set bonus and have higher rating. 35% is something that can be attained.
Since you're bringing PvP, my solution also works in PvP. Like I said, it shines when you can't shield. PvP has lots of situations where you can't shield, for exemple an auto-crit smash.
If you're taking an auto-crit smash and you have my new Bulwark up, with your 31.73% DR you passively have, you'll take damage like if you'd have 38.557% DR instead. 8K hits will turn into 7.2K hits. It has the side effect of turning Shadows in the tank who have the best mitigation of Elemental/Internal damage, since none can be shielded, instead of being at the same level than others.

You're saying that we're trying to invent the wheel, but that's necessary. You can't balance things with just concepts. That's because the devs cared too much about concepts and not numbers that Shadows ended in this situation (unable to withstand random occurance that are too likely to happen, being too relient of PvP-unfriendly mechanics aka healing, avoidance and shield)

xnightshadex's Avatar


xnightshadex
07.07.2013 , 11:39 AM | #295
I've been toying with an idea for how Assassins might be improved without making them more like the other types of tanks. One of the attractive features of the Assassin is the high mean mitigation vs the spikes of damage (currently, the cost benefit of this is negative).

I've seen calls to reduce the self healing in favor of damage reduction. I feel this would take away one of the aspects that make a sin fun to play. I'll admit self heals are useless in PVP, but I think with a few tweaks they can be useful in PVE and PVP and help balance out the Shadow/Assassin.

Here is what I propose. Please note I haven't done any hard number crunching on this theory to back it up (but I might when I have some time). I also love the self heal as a mitigation strategy and nerfing that in an attempt to fix the issues with Assassins/Shadows, for me, takes away one of my favorite aspects of the class.

Dark Charge/Combat Technique

The fact this triggers on attack is counter-intuitive (and limiting on Kelsara during NiM Dread Masters). Sometimes it may trigger while you have full health, and trigger your mending relic... wasting heals.

I propose this now proc based on taking an unshielded hit. It should immediately heal you for a percentage based on the damage received. This percentage can be increased using the talent that currently increases dark ward charge proc chance.

If this is too over powered, it could have a chance of activation on an unmitigated hit, but this puts us back into the RNG game and I am trying to avoid that.

This makes Dark Charge heal us only when we most need it, and couple it with the mending relic we have a very nice synergy that only fires when we get massively hit. It also allows the spikiness to continue, because for a 20K hit, we are still taking the full 20K (then healing some % of it) so we need to be topped off, but lessens the burden of the healers and helps with back to back unmitigated hits.

Lightning/Throw

This thing sucks. It is one of the biggest factors in our self healing, yet with the amount of trash and bosses that have stun and knockback abilities, it is only usable when we have 3 seconds to just stand there when we know we aren't going to be knocked back, stunned, or have to move which limits our ability to use it when we need it. Additionally, this ability adds no value in PVP unless the other team is not paying attention (and if interrupted, you have to build those stacks all over again).

I propose a change to the way it works. For each charge (up to three), reduce the time to cast by one second for each charge. It would work like alacrity, in that at three stacks you would unload every heal and damage tick almost at once, so the damage and heal profile doesn't change; it is merely compressed.

Why is this a good idea? It allows us to use our biggest source of self healing as a cool down when we need it without fear that we might waste half of it because we will have to move or might get interrupted.
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nagatamen's Avatar


nagatamen
07.07.2013 , 02:54 PM | #296
Quote: Originally Posted by xnightshadex View Post
Dark Charge/Combat Technique

The fact this triggers on attack is counter-intuitive (and limiting on Kelsara during NiM Dread Masters). Sometimes it may trigger while you have full health, and trigger your mending relic... wasting heals.

I propose this now proc based on taking an unshielded hit. It should immediately heal you for a percentage based on the damage received. This percentage can be increased using the talent that currently increases dark ward charge proc chance.

If this is too over powered, it could have a chance of activation on an unmitigated hit, but this puts us back into the RNG game and I am trying to avoid that.

This makes Dark Charge heal us only when we most need it, and couple it with the mending relic we have a very nice synergy that only fires when we get massively hit. It also allows the spikiness to continue, because for a 20K hit, we are still taking the full 20K (then healing some % of it) so we need to be topped off, but lessens the burden of the healers and helps with back to back unmitigated hits.
I was hoping for a little clarification on this, are you saying that the heal would be applied before or after the damage from the attack is applied? Either way it raises some concerns from me (although take it for what it's worth as I'm not an expert with how everything works in detail). I see that if the heal is applied before the damage is applied it could be useful, but it will depend on how much healing is applied, how much healing could actually be used and how big the attack is. If the heal is applied after the damage is dealt it may not be helpful if the tank is taking a big enough spike it won't help at all. Overall what I see is that this might help with healers keeping the tank topped off, but as I said I'm not a super expert with this so if anyone can tell me where I'm right/wrong I'd be appreciative.
Quote: Originally Posted by xnightshadex View Post
Lightning/Throw

This thing sucks. It is one of the biggest factors in our self healing, yet with the amount of trash and bosses that have stun and knockback abilities, it is only usable when we have 3 seconds to just stand there when we know we aren't going to be knocked back, stunned, or have to move which limits our ability to use it when we need it. Additionally, this ability adds no value in PVP unless the other team is not paying attention (and if interrupted, you have to build those stacks all over again).

I propose a change to the way it works. For each charge (up to three), reduce the time to cast by one second for each charge. It would work like alacrity, in that at three stacks you would unload every heal and damage tick almost at once, so the damage and heal profile doesn't change; it is merely compressed.

Why is this a good idea? It allows us to use our biggest source of self healing as a cool down when we need it without fear that we might waste half of it because we will have to move or might get interrupted.
I like this idea, but I don't know what full effects it will have overall. Personally I've never had much problem getting most if not all of my Telekinetic Throw used, but I have limited experience with current Nightmare Modes (haven't gotten past Writhing Horror). What I see from this is a really fast damage spike and a decent sized heal in a very short time. My gut says this might cause some balance issues in pvp, but I don't pvp at all so I'm out of my element. Honestly I don't know what this would change as I mentioned never having a problem with the channels, but I'm open to hear what I'm missing.

EFSoupy's Avatar


EFSoupy
07.07.2013 , 08:55 PM | #297
Quote: Originally Posted by xnightshadex View Post
Here is what I propose. Please note I haven't done any hard number crunching on this theory to back it up (but I might when I have some time). I also love the self heal as a mitigation strategy and nerfing that in an attempt to fix the issues with Assassins/Shadows, for me, takes away one of my favorite aspects of the class.

Dark Charge/Combat Technique

The fact this triggers on attack is counter-intuitive (and limiting on Kelsara during NiM Dread Masters). Sometimes it may trigger while you have full health, and trigger your mending relic... wasting heals.

I propose this now proc based on taking an unshielded hit. It should immediately heal you for a percentage based on the damage received. This percentage can be increased using the talent that currently increases dark ward charge proc chance.

If this is too over powered, it could have a chance of activation on an unmitigated hit, but this puts us back into the RNG game and I am trying to avoid that.

This makes Dark Charge heal us only when we most need it, and couple it with the mending relic we have a very nice synergy that only fires when we get massively hit. It also allows the spikiness to continue, because for a 20K hit, we are still taking the full 20K (then healing some % of it) so we need to be topped off, but lessens the burden of the healers and helps with back to back unmitigated hits.
If I'm understanding this correctly, it's effectively a DR/armor buff being called a different name (especially if it's scaling with hit size). I very much agree with your determination of the problem, but it sounds like a complicated way to buff DR.
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ezrafetch's Avatar


ezrafetch
07.07.2013 , 09:25 PM | #298
Quote: Originally Posted by helpmewin View Post
Rly? Reducing self healing? He have crap self healing in pvp and with ur suggestion shadow will loose anything self healing. Cause enemy does not allow him tunneling telekinetic throw (vs good players) and only thing is CT and BR healing. BR have 2 min CD. Ur suggestion is poor and do not fixing shadow problem. For 4-5% DR he loose 5% defense and self healing nice! Worst what i ever seen. Shadow is not only PvE tank. He have problems in PvP too.
Shadows kinetic combat nerfing and re-balancing almost every patch since 1.3, in 2.0 they rebalanced this tree. Other 2 tanks have a very good buff in their tree's. And now with this nerfs and re-balancing shadow is worst tank. He need a buff not a regular re-balance. Only blind or shadows hater didn't see this problem.
But you're missing the point: passive mitigation is increased to make up for the reduced self-healing: the issue isn't that mean mitigation is low, but that the spikes effectively render the high mean mitigation useless since you're not alive long enough to use it. Increasing passive mitigation while reducing self heals maintains mean mitigation while shifting the mitigation from reactive self-heals to passive mitigation, which is not reactive. It's a straight buff, to be honest, since it reduces spikiness while maintaining mean mitigation.

The self-heals in PvP are not reliable anyways: you're just as prone to get blown up in both PvP and PvE at the moment. The proposed changes will make you less likely to get blown up. HS-TkT is a reactive mitigation mechanism and does not necessarily prevent you from getting blown up (especially in a PvP setting), it delays it. Shifting the mitigation to be more passive will help you avoid the whole "getting blown up" bit. Plus, in PvP environments most people know to use KBs/stuns to stop HS-TkT, effectively limiting your self-healing. The changes will allow you to mitigate damage throughout those stuns and KBs.
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Kingsbount's Avatar


Kingsbount
07.07.2013 , 10:53 PM | #299
Im really sorry to interrupt such "deep game mechanicks" debate, but i want to ask you only one thing...

How you guys feel yourself in low-level tanking assassin/shadow?
Im asking this question becouse mainly you discuss only high level content, which i (probably) will never even see.
What about assassins/shadows before 30-40 levels?

Im sorry if my question is noobish.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.07.2013 , 11:20 PM | #300
Quote: Originally Posted by Kingsbount View Post
How you guys feel yourself in low-level tanking assassin/shadow?
Shadows are most definitely the worst low-level tanks for a number of reasons.

The biggest one is that Shadows rely *very heavily* upon their tank stats and, since you don't see appreciable amounts of any of these under your mid-30s or later, Shadows are *substantially* squishier than the other two tanks because all that a tank really has at the low levels is their K/E DR and Shadows just don't pack *nearly* as much as the other tanks.

The second reason is that a *vast* majority of Shadow self healing is loaded into a single deep talent (Harnessed Shadows). Since self-healing comprises such a *large* amount of total Shadow mitigation, Shadows are missing out on a *large* portion of their total mitigation until they hit their mid-30s-40s when they finally get HS and Slow Time.

Essentially, Shadows are *really* squishy compared to the other tank ACs until they've almost finished out their tree, wherein they spike up in survivability to to reach parity, due in part to *finally* getting tank stats on gear and *finally* getting access to a vast majority of their self-healing.

Increasing DR in the desired manner would do a *lot* to make low level Shadow tanking better. Increased armor or outright DR would both almost assuredly be attached to Combat Technique, which means that you would have access to them as soon as you can start tanking. If the self healing were reduced, the necessary spike up in survivability when you finally get Harnessed Shadows wouldn't be as prevalent which smooths out performance, making life easier before you get there.

Quality of leveling is something that often gets lost in a lot of these discussions. I always try to keep it in the back of my mind because I remember quite well how much of a chore leveling up my Shadow was compared to all of the other ACs. The 2.0 change to Force Breach makes it *much* easier already, but the mitigation problems at low level are *still* present since Shadows just don't have access to the ratings that constitute a majority of their survivability whereas the other tanks do (armor rating as opposed to Def/Shield/Abs rating). Swapping over to more DR would assuage those low level mitigation problems a lot.
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