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Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Consular > Shadow
Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
07.03.2013 , 06:53 PM | #211
I wonder if in another 6 months a dev will have posted on the Assassin forums, but back on topic.

A merc healer mentioning using supercharge gas and not critting 6-7 times in a row and thus losing the tank gave me this idea: an ability that makes all incoming heals autocrit or increases their crit chance for x% over a duration y with a cooldown z.

Would it work? All ideas are for decreasing spikiness and brining us closer to jugg/PT, the problem with that is that once we're just as easy to heal as juggs/PT's our increased average mitigation will boost us ahead and into the best tank position no matter what, no tradeoff. And it's difficult to find a good spot where we're not merely *juggs with two glued sabers*

The problem with my suggestion is that it won't solve RNG deaths, it would push sins further into rotating cd's whilst tanking no matter what. But such a cd would be interesting to use, it would also increase average mitigation by decreasing average healing required and might unbalance pvp, autocrit heals for 5 seconds does sound overpowered in pvp.

Other options would be aforementioned staggering mechanics: we take 70% or x% of our health in damage within 1 GCD and we [heal 25% of our health/gain 30% DR but lose dark ward and all dark bulwark charges/get an absorb barrier reflecting single target attacks (all types) for the next 2-3 seconds/we gain a 5-10K absorb shield for 5 seconds/we avoid all single target attack for 2-3 seconds etc etc...] One of those.

Personally I'd like a defensive/survival cooldown tied to Recklessness (60% crit chance on force) and the Stealth Cloak or Vanish, the latter one may be just because it will prevent people from claiming that Vanish is a *raid utility* sin tanks bring to the raid.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
07.03.2013 , 06:58 PM | #212
Quote: Originally Posted by SomeJagoff View Post
Here's hoping it doesn't take 8 months to increase armor rating.

Btw, since my main is/was a sin, if you guys can actually fix this so that they're not the WORST tanks, I'd consider that "content" and would be fully satisfied.
Don't despair, if everything else fails we can always play the viable DPS role.... oh wait, we are the worst of all at that too.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
07.03.2013 , 07:00 PM | #213
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
We got their attention, hope they fix it before we leave the game en masse.
It's a PR move called "buying time". You feel relieved and will keep staying subbed for some more months, waiting for Godot. Then, some changes might or might not happen, but then you have shelled your money and thus they won.

leto_cleon's Avatar


leto_cleon
07.03.2013 , 07:09 PM | #214
I'd probably roll over laughing if the investigation resulted in this:

"Hey guys after thorough investigation, we found a bug affecting the damage dealt to all Assassins and Shadows. Enemy NPCs are incorrectly receiving a hidden damage boost when dealing damage to Assassins and Shadows. Light armour is also incorrectly taking more damage than no armour."

Alduinsm's Avatar


Alduinsm
07.03.2013 , 08:36 PM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaerah View Post
It's a PR move called "buying time". You feel relieved and will keep staying subbed for some more months, waiting for Godot. Then, some changes might or might not happen, but then you have shelled your money and thus they won.
It's better than nothing at all.
Shin

Moriganno's Avatar


Moriganno
07.03.2013 , 10:51 PM | #216
I mean no disrespect, but your response has come way too late and effort to fix the issue is None at best.

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey guys,

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

-eric

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
07.04.2013 , 12:59 AM | #217
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey guys,

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

-eric
better late than never.

after you have done your calculations and (should there be a problem...) adaptations,

maybe one (or more) of your people who has experience with the other classes might want to try playing a shadow/assassin for a while, also don't pair them with your best Healers see what happens to a VG/Guardian when paired with a decent but not perfect Healer and then repeat it with a Shadow.

did you think you were able to help your healer keeping you and your Group up on your VG/Guardien? (y/n)
did you think you were able to help your healer keeping you up on your Shadow? (y/n)
then ask your Healer how he felt. be truthful.
did it feel good what your Healer had to say to you? (y/n)

repeat that in a few 55HC Flashpoints, with recommended Gear/with gear that drops in that same Instance.
Story Operations with recommended Gear/with gear that drops in that same Instance.
in addition to the HC/NIM ops where it's a live or death Issue even with good Healers (should there be a Problem...).
also at least for FP's you might want to try it out with all three Heal Classes. they don't take all that long.

yea I'll tell everyone who asks that all (current) content is doable even with double shadows.
but I much prefer Healing even double shadows over playing one myself these days (except for TFB that's a nice OP).
you watch your Health Drop and are unable to do anything to help your Healer, because you now that if you now use one of your CDs to help out recovering from a Random-Spike, you will die to the non-random Burst mechanic.

would you like to play a tank like that if you had a choice? (y/n)

if asked directly I'd tell any Healer he/she needs to improve if they can't keep a good shadow easily alive in anything except for A&V, but that wasn't half that big a Problem before 2.0.
did you notice my disclaimer?

oh and then do the content with the Accuracy/Alac Tank gear you seem to like that much.
see what happens to a VG/Guardian.
see what happens to a Shadow.
did it feel as if the defs has crapped upon you? (y/n)

not to mention
did you think placing your Phase walk was comfortable? (y/n)
did your healers use it after you replaced it during Combat? (y/n)

Eitetsu's Avatar


Eitetsu
07.04.2013 , 02:28 AM | #218
They've always been big on "self healing" being a "primary" mitigation factor. And, before they nerfed shadow\assassin so hard, it worked out okay. But when you're getting two unlucky crits in a row on Writhing Horror NiM for 20k+ each, a heal for 3-4k over 3 seconds isn't going to do anything. If they were serious about "self heals" with the kind of damage I've been seeing on NiM, they'd change overcharge saber so that it instantly heals you to 100% HP in addition to its other effects.

You could also return them to their previous state, but they really want a "light armor" tank, which is horrible when you get unlucky RNG crits as mentioned above. So another hilarious option I thought up is: a passive ability that completely nullifies enemy critical hits. How much fun that would be.
Eitetsu - Assassin; Tenzinn - Marauder; Kathedra - Mercenary; Korrana - Operative; Murasaki - Sorcerer; Tathata - Juggernaut; Weißreiter - Sniper; Aureatus - Powertech

Rahizm's Avatar


Rahizm
07.04.2013 , 03:37 AM | #219
Quote:
better late than never.

after you have done your calculations and (should there be a problem...) adaptations,

maybe one (or more) of your people who has experience with the other classes might want to try playing a shadow/assassin for a while, also don't pair them with your best Healers see what happens to a VG/Guardian when paired with a decent but not perfect Healer and then repeat it with a Shadow.
^ This.

In other words Devs, leave your rolling/stationary snipers alone and get to shadow tanking, see how you like it at the moment.

In all seriousness, I have pretty much left my shadow in the dark because of the huge nerf. I did manage to tank and complete all the HMs, but when NiM TFB was announced, I switched to my main DPS. Ironically, I saw a guildie shadow tank, slightly more geared than my tank is, die because of the spikiness, over and over and over. Asked what the cause of death was every time, "meh pretty much over 20k in 1 hit" was the answer. Not to mention the 19k+ hits on BOTH Story Mode and Hard Mode S&V on Thrasher and the Operations Chief's Terminate (25k+).

So with all respect, we all appreciate the "news" that the team "is looking into it", but what really would be appreciated, is if it would be resolved IN THE NEXT PATCH APPLIED using the math that has already been done by your friendly PLAYERS in YOUR commuity (Kitru, KBN) instead of another Cartel Market discount / item.

Thanks for reading.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
07.04.2013 , 04:30 AM | #220
Quote: Originally Posted by Eitetsu View Post
You could also return them to their previous state
I'd like a comment from one of the theory crafters on this:

If sins were restored to their Exact pre1.3 state, i.e., no phase walk heals/only 8 charges of dark ward/no dark bulwark, but the 150% armor from dark charge+20% armor from tree talent + restored dark charge heals+ restored force lightning %s....would they still be super spikey and die of RNG deaths?

Was even that amount of armor/self heals not enough to bring spikiness down?

Or would they just be stomping through nightmare ops with no remote chance of spikey RNG deaths?

Honest questions, would really like to know.
Lightsabers, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Jedi Mind Tricks, what else could you want from an MMO? There may be other MMOs out there, but do they have Lightsabers?....Do They?

Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?