Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness
 
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
07.03.2013 , 04:52 AM | #191
Any time you have to look at skipping the top tree ability is a damn good indication that the skill tree is badly broken. (See: pre-2.0 hybrid guardian/juggernauts tanks, post-2.0 hybrid vanguard/powertech DPS).

From the 2.3 patch notes, nothing there for us either, so no improvement probably till September/October.

My Guardian should be 50 this weekend, maybe even 55. My shadow tank is basically collecting gear/comms for her till then.

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
07.03.2013 , 12:39 PM | #192 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey guys,

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

-eric
Eric Musco | Community Manager
Follow us on Twitter @SWTOR | Like us on Facebook
[Contact Us] [Rules of Conduct] [F.A.Q.]

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.03.2013 , 12:46 PM | #193
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey guys,

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

-eric
So it only took a month and a half and Leafy committing forum seppuku for us to finally get a response, much less any attention. I find it incredibly disheartening that after *everything we've done" the best we get is "investigating* (because, you know, it's not like we haven't presented them with a *crapton* of evidence and math) and "no timeline". Awesome...

I am very happy that we *finally* got a response though. Maybe the community mods will finally feel like coming over to the class forums more than once in a blue moon.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

toomanyluigis's Avatar


toomanyluigis
07.03.2013 , 01:12 PM | #194
lol I cant beleive how such people think, You ask them "just toss us a bone, anything will do, dont leave us hanging" and they give you answer, and even if its not the answer u wanted you still complain XD

MasterGladius's Avatar


MasterGladius
07.03.2013 , 01:29 PM | #195
I'm glad it is being investigated and that we know they are aware of the concern. I pray the 'investigation' is done quickly and that we get a fix on the way soon. I love my Shadow. I don't want him to retire.

Hopefully they won't be giving a timeline because we're up for a hotfix? 2.3? Please not 2.4. If it is that long, my shadow will be retired.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
07.03.2013 , 01:46 PM | #196
Quote: Originally Posted by toomanyluigis View Post
lol I cant beleive how such people think, You ask them "just toss us a bone, anything will do, dont leave us hanging" and they give you answer, and even if its not the answer u wanted you still complain XD
I'm *ecstatic* that they finally decided to weigh in, but that doesn't change the fact that they only provided the absolute *minimum* to assuage me rather than actually saying anything that would return some degree of respect/trust that they've demolished with their behavior thus far.

The only thing we've learned is that they're *finally* paying attention (not that they actually believe it's an issue), which isn't much since they were paying attention to Guardian threat and didn't fix *that* for over a year.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.03.2013 , 01:51 PM | #197
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey guys,

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

-eric
Depressingly bare in the information department, but I think we all understand that your hands are tied in this respect. I would strongly, strongly encourage the combat team to either pass on to you very detailed information, or (even better) post here themselves. We've developed extensive mathematical models and simulations to illuminate and explore this problem; we would appreciate if the tenor of the discussion is preserved in that form. (in other words, a vague reference to "metrics" is likely to spark another revolt)

Thank you again for finally getting back to us. As frustrating as it is to have very little information in this area, it's better than *no* information or acknowledgement.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Ilith's Avatar


Ilith
07.03.2013 , 01:59 PM | #198
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterGladius View Post
I'm glad it is being investigated and that we know they are aware of the concern. I pray the 'investigation' is done quickly and that we get a fix on the way soon. I love my Shadow. I don't want him to retire.

Hopefully they won't be giving a timeline because we're up for a hotfix? 2.3? Please not 2.4. If it is that long, my shadow will be retired.
My shadow and assassin tanks are already retired. Double XP has been great for leveling a guardian. It feels much more solid. Can't believe I struggled through shadow tanking for so long in 2.0, watching my health drop to 2k with my heart in my mouth hoping healers weren't caught between GCDs. Watching my assassin co-tank get mysteriously one-shot from 85% and have everyone mystified at why, secretly wondering if he just wasn't 'good' enough to hit the right cooldown in time. Well, thankfully the forums helped clear up what was going on. His PT never has that issue.

As for me, Guardian. Plenty of AOE threat, unbelievable cooldowns, great utility. Go for it. Sure it's a little dumber, you basically hit your cooldown buttons one by one, but it sure beats being dead.

Unfortunately, I only have time to do this on the pub side. I'm no longer endgame tanking on imp side. Don't really see a use for my Assassin or Shadow since they can't DPS competitively either... at least they have 5 companions for farming crafting mats.
"Just so you Jedi know, the whole 'cryptic' routine isn't mysterious, it's just irritating. If you really can see the future, you should be at the pazaak table." - Atton Rand

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
07.03.2013 , 02:00 PM | #199
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey guys,

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

-eric
Any comment is better than no comment, for sure.

I suppose it's extra disheartening because the content team had a pretty good answer in EC with Kephess. They ignored that answer for their 2.0 content and the horrific spike-damage-related imbalance is the result.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.03.2013 , 02:02 PM | #200
Quote: Originally Posted by JClawson View Post
It concerns me that you didn't even look at the spec before replying, but I guess that is your prerogative. Had you looked at it you would see that I do in fact keep the 2% healing received.
I did actually look at it, but it was late and I missed the Shadow Shelter talent (sorry!). In previous discussions, this talent had been dropped.

Even with the 2% healing received, you're still requiring almost 11% more external healing. As I said in my post, this is a really bad trade. You're mathematically MUCH better off switching to all B mods (which you can get for coms) and a few Fortitude augments. Endurance stacking fixes the spikiness issue outright at the cost of significantly more healing (but no where near as much more as this hybrid spec requires). It's not a *good* solution, but it's better than sacrificing Wither for a mere 25% DR cooldown.

Quote: Originally Posted by JClawson View Post
Obviously the point of the spec is not to use this new cooldown with some type of unattainable clairvoyance. However, the problem I am running into is getting hit with a series of unlucky/unmitigated attacks during which time I (a) have no cooldowns available, and (b) cannot receive heals in time before I die. This spec adds 1 more cooldown to use in those situations, it basically buys 6 seconds to get some big heals cooking on me.
Generally speaking, I rarely find myself in a situation where I've been spiked hard and I *don't* have a CD available. The problem is more that I get spiked to DEATH before I have a chance to react, and the spikes themselves can come in rapid chains (sometimes unhealably fast). Having another 25% DR CD is nice, but it doesn't address that issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by JClawson View Post
Like I said in the original post, the reason sin/shadow tanks are failing is because of the burst. If I increase the heals I need in the aggregate by 5-10% at the cost of not dying during a boss pull then I count that as winning. Let's face it, healing in this game is more than capable of taking up the long term incoming damage this spec creates; and the spec prevents the short term damage from causing a wipe.
Sure, but what if you could increase the healing you need by just 3-5% while addressing the spikiness issues in a way that *actually* works in all circumstances (i.e. not requiring manual intervention)? Wouldn't that be a better deal? You get that if you stack B mods and a few Fort augments.

Quote: Originally Posted by JClawson View Post
Baring a real fix to the sin/shadow tanking tree/kit I will be playing this spec to clear NiM content as it is the only way I feel safe handling the massive burst damage that we are seeing.
I wouldn't. NiM Dread Guard is still primarily an efficiency fight. The primary bit of spikiness is in the third phase with Kel'sara's Discharge paired with Clairvoyant Strike. This spike comes once every 30-45 seconds with a probability of just 10% (still unacceptably likely, but not a consistent thing). I have found that I always have a CD up for when this spike happens.

Your build will require 11% more external healing, which translates into 165 more HPS. That doesn't sound like a lot, but when the healers are already essentially at the extreme limit of what their energy regen can support, every bit counts. You might be able to clear the boss with this build, but trust me when I say that you're going to make your healers work a lot harder than they need to.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)