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Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

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Kitru
06.04.2013 , 10:55 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
how about fixing it from the Healer Side instead,
Unless *every* healer got this, it wouldn't solve the problem well. It would just mean that Shadows can *only* run with whichever healer has this effect. If you applied it to *all* healers, you would be reducing spike damage to *all* tanks (especially with your idea that it affect unshielded hits; realize, Shadows are more likely to Shield an attack than *any* other tank; the other tanks are more likely to have an unshielded hit go through, they just take less damage because they have ~50% mitigation when unshielded whereas Shadows have ~35%), which means that the content developers would just have to *increase* the spike damage to make it achieve its intended purpose (pressuring the heals and tank without having to resort to absurdly high average DPS).

You *can't* fix the problem on the healer end. It's a problem that *only* affects Shadows and, unless it is done to *all* healers, would force Shadows to run with a specific healer, who would just as effectively reduce spike damage to *all* tanks, turning what is already a laughable situation for Guards and VGs into a completely unnoticeable event.

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changing the buff from Accuracy to DR would be nice but make the Guardian + Shadow combo even stronger
also would/should it work with two shadows and give a doubled benefit?
You're misreading the intended effect. Shadows *already* have a damage debuff, so adding one to Force Breach wouldn't stack. The idea is to remove the accuracy debuff that Force Breach applies to enemies hit by it and replace it with a damage resistance *buff* that applies to the Shadow whenever Force Breach is used. It's not talking about further debuffing enemies in the least. It's talking about swapping what is currently a debuff into an outright buff.

The *only* potential concern is the advantage in stacking a Guardian tank with a Shadow tank: it would preserve the current situation while simultaneously providing the Shadow with the 4% additional DR we're talking about, increasing average mitigation, which is not desirable. The question is whether the developers would *encourage* synergy of this type (as a Guardian + VG combination *already* does thanks to Guardians bringing the acc debuff that VGs are missing and VGs bringing the damage debuff that Guardians are missing) and whether the synergy should be expanded to provide Shadows with something unique (like having Shadows apply a debuff that causes any hit on a debuffed enemy to provide a small heal) so as to create a trinity between the tanks and outright encourage synergy on a greater scale.

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how about translating 50% of our defence chance into DR
It would also be *massively* overpowered while turning us into little more than VG/Guardian copies and creating a paradigm where the *only* thing you want is Defense. As it stands, it's possible for a Shadow to get to 31.5% Defense chance if they stack Defense while completely ignoring Absorb (so you're still packing ~790 Shield chance). This would put Shadow flat DR at ~51% (which is exactly what VGs have), while our Shield chance would sit pretty at 55% and Defense at 31.5% (but only the baseline 24% Absorb value, which is almost a joke). That's almost hilariously similar to Guardians (50/26/41/35) and VGs (51/19/42/58), while also being *way* too powerful (Shadows would manage 70.1% total mitigation, Guardians 68.3%, and VGs 69.9% and that's *before* factoring Shadow self heals, which account for another 4-7% mitigation depending on incoming damage levels).

If you intended on it *reducing* Defense chance by half, it would be almost ludicrously *underpowered*: the loadout would be 51/16/55/20 which averages into 63.25% mitigation so that Shadows can, at *best*, under low incoming damage scenarios, achieve parity, while, in high incoming damage scenarios, be noticeably and substantially *worse*.
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Kitru
06.04.2013 , 11:15 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
And by that I don't mean "look ma, I chose to use resilience on that attack" in terms of skill, more of a "I know this guy will hit me harder than usual in about 4-5 GCD's I am going to proactively do something about significantly reducing that damage without having to pop a cool down".
The best idea that fits within this design paradigm is the addition of a CD that increases Shield chance to 100% (i.e. a Shield version of Resilience) for 3-5 seconds on a ~1 minute CD. Shadows would be rewarded for predicting incoming damage spikes while requiring appropriate timing and creating a construct that prevents massive burst damage but only under properly executed conditions.

Complex attack string modifications and reliance of multitudinous conditionals doesn't equate to skill tanking. It equates to a variant form of RNG: if you *just so happen* to arrive at *these specific conditions* at *just the right time*, you'll take care of the spikiness issue. Instead of placing the dice roll in the hands of the attack system, you're placing it in the hands of the clock.

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Except for one thing, the increased DR on harnessed shadows stacks, why not look at it as an added bonus? When you get a stack you get some added mitigation thrown in there, you still use your tkt, but scale the DR numbers so its less appealing to hang onto the stacks?
The issue is that it rewards Shadows for *not* using something that they're explicitly *supposed* to use. A huge portion of Shadow threat is tied up in TkT use (the only thing that gets close is Project and you're using that twice as much), as well as Shadow resource management (compare the 52 Force over 2 GCDs that Project uses to generate the same threat as 30 Force over 2 GCDs; HSx3 TkT is a method by which Shadows are rewarded for using inefficient attacks by getting an efficient attack at the end).

If you adjust the numbers so that it *doesn't* encourage holding on to them, it doesn't serve the purpose of reducing spike damage. It's a bonus, but it doesn't actually fulfill the goal.

The *only* effect similar to this is Power Screen for VGs: it provides 3% additional Absorb and is consumed when you use Energy Blast. The reason why this design is *good* is because Energy Blast consumes the 3% Absorb to explicitly provide *substantially more* Absorb than Power Screen provides. Power Screen is explicitly designed to act as a consumed resource to be consumed to power Energy Blast.

In order to achieve similar results and achieve our purpose here, you would need to change the end effect of Harnessed Shadows (such that, instead of providing a self heal, it instead provided a DR buff) while simultaneously making sure that the duration on the provided buff is long enough that there isn't downtime (because, once again, you're creating a time frame where you're spiky as hell, switching the variability from the attack roll to time). You would *also* have to reexamine Shadow tank healing and make sure that you're not providing an overwhelming mitigation advantage to Shadows with the DR provided in exchange for the self healing. Mathematically, it's not complicated, but it would require a lot of redundant consultation of the spikiness formula to acceptably reduce spikiness while not impacting average mitigation.

As a side note, it would also do absolutely jack and **** for low level Shadows. One of the advantages of the Force Breach change is that leveling Shadow tanks aren't squishy as hell (which they are, since actual tank stats are almost nonexistent until your 30s so an overwhelming portion of your mitigation is derived from your armor rating and damage reduction; Shadows, who are almost entirely dependent upon tank stats, get screwed over by the lack of tank stats at low levels, especially since they don't even have appreciable self healing, which is nominally supposed to overcome this disadvantage, until their 30s).
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DarthSpekulatius
06.05.2013 , 12:21 AM | #103
well you said it your self the other tanks don't shield as much as Shadows anyway so trauma Probe wouldn't reduce their Spikiness as much as Shadow Spikiness also if it's scaled with the damage you take after DR shadows would get a good chunk more and having another heal class (I think Scoundrel Hots are a strong tool against spikiness as well but that's up to debate if you don't think so replace another with any) heal Class able to reduce spikes is better then none.

about Force Breach from debuff to buff, then it wouldn't be raid wide any longer and make the shadow+VG combo less desirable.
and might be considered a nerf (would be one in PVP)

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DarthSpekulatius
06.05.2013 , 12:44 AM | #104
I split this up because this was more in a brainstorm manner then anything else and I'm not exactly sure
from a gut reaction I would have said you wouldn't want to go pure Def due to diminishing returns but I am sure you can tweak it to make sure it is.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It would also be *massively* overpowered while turning us into little more than VG/Guardian copies and creating a paradigm where the *only* thing you want is Defense. As it stands, it's possible for a Shadow to get to 31.5% Defense chance if they stack Defense while completely ignoring Absorb (so you're still packing ~790 Shield chance). This would put Shadow flat DR at ~51% (which is exactly what VGs have), while our Shield chance would sit pretty at 55% and Defense at 31.5% (but only the baseline 24% Absorb value, which is almost a joke). That's almost hilariously similar to Guardians (50/26/41/35) and VGs (51/19/42/58), while also being *way* too powerful (Shadows would manage 70.1% total mitigation, Guardians 68.3%, and VGs 69.9% and that's *before* factoring Shadow self heals, which account for another 4-7% mitigation depending on incoming damage levels).

If you intended on it *reducing* Defense chance by half, it would be almost ludicrously *underpowered*: the loadout would be 51/16/55/20 which averages into 63.25% mitigation so that Shadows can, at *best*, under low incoming damage scenarios, achieve parity, while, in high incoming damage scenarios, be noticeably and substantially *worse*.
the 2nd part is true. but I'm more aiming for the Itemisation as it currently is.
it can't be underpowered because no one forces you to go all out Defence!
and you have to decide by yourself if you want the same spikiness but take substantially more damage then VGs+Guardians.
or have it the way it currently is but with the bosses miss less often but always hit for less as well
overall the same thing you proposed with the Force breach Buff just that it scales with Equipment the player can decide himself
I don't know BIS numbers im at (i'm nor sure about DR) 32/22/50/37 without the new augments in mostly 69 stuff and still working on getting more equip on my shadow
these would change to 43/11/50/37
it should give a better overall mitigation (1:1 def% to DR is much more effective and has no downside I can think of) so some more tweaking would be necessary but that's doable
edit: the downside would be less Force generation and faster vanishing of Kinetic ward stacks

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Kitru
06.05.2013 , 02:11 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
well you said it your self the other tanks don't shield as much as Shadows anyway so trauma Probe wouldn't reduce their Spikiness as much as Shadow Spikiness
You said *unshielded* attacks. By providing a burst heal when an attack isn't shielded, since the other tanks don't shield as often, they get the bigger heals more often. As such, they would be getting the bigger heals more often while simultaneously reducing their existing spikiness by, proportionately, more than Shadows. The problem isn't in the fact that it reduces spikiness (which it doesn't really, since healing isn't an effective counter to spikiness since spikiness most often kills by wailing on someone with a big attack rather than dropping them low and then finishing them off with little attacks; the little hits killing a tank *can* and *do* happen, but they're not in the majority). The problem is that it reduces spikiness for *all* tanks which means that, in order for spikiness to actually serve the intended purpose (putting direct pressure on tanks and healers), the spikes would need to hit *harder* so that they actually pressure Guardians and VGs.

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also if it's scaled with the damage you take after DR shadows would get a good chunk more
Having it scale with incoming damage while simultaneously having it track what kind of attack it is *and* having it affected by relevant healing stats is creating *way* too many variables and programmatic convolution to justify what is, on its face, a bad idea. It *could* be done, but it wouldn't be as effective *or* as simple as what could be done in any number of other ways. It's a terrible idea, seriously.

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and having another heal class (I think Scoundrel Hots are a strong tool against spikiness as well but that's up to debate if you don't think so replace another with any) heal Class able to reduce spikes is better then none.
Actually, Sages and Commandos are the only healers that are really effective at mitigating spikiness: they provide the armor buff, which actually increases DR. Scoundrels don't have that. Of course, the armor buff is so minute that it pretty much doesn't matter in the least so it's not a big deal.

Scoundrel HoTs do *not* mitigate spikiness. As previously mentioned, spikiness is being killed by single big hits. At best, a HoT is going to provide a small heal to *potentially* keep a tank up after a major spike hit to prevent death by follow up attacks. Of course, the actual size of the SRM isn't going to be big enough to make a major impact.

As I mentioned before, trying to fix the spikiness problem from the healer side without providing some mechanism to *all* healers just means that Shadow tanks (who are the only tanks with spikiness problems) would be *forced* to run with said healer. When the problem is with one specific tank, rather than changing one healer to make their life easier, it's both simpler, more effective, and more elegant to just fix the broken tank. If the devs *did* change a healer to "fix" a specific tank's problem, they would functionally *require* that specific healer to run with that specific tank, which is a *terrible* idea. It would just end up screwing Shadows out of content just as much as they are now (since, if the ops group doesn't have at least one of that specific healer, the Shadow isn't going to be viable, which means your effectiveness is predicated upon the presence of a specific class, which is just bad design).

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about Force Breach from debuff to buff, then it wouldn't be raid wide any longer and make the shadow+VG combo less desirable.
It's actually already been brought up a *number* of times. I realize it's hard to read the walls of text, but you're bringing up something that has been discussed more than sufficiently while bringing up almost every conceivable angle of the problem (and whether it's actually a "problem" from the developer's standpoint).

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and might be considered a nerf (would be one in PVP)
I *highly* doubt that anyone would consider it a nerf of any kind. First off, the 5% acc debuff isn't absolutely required: people run with double VG without issue, not to mention all of the fights where the tanks aren't on the same target and the problems don't exist. As to it being a nerf for those that *aren't* tanks, the acc debuff only affect M/R attacks and the only times that a DPS is going to get hit by an M/R attack by a mob that a tank is actively punching is if they're standing in cleave (which they shouldn't be). The big AoEs that bosses throw out are F/T attacks.

As to PvP, as much as it would be a nerf, it would be a buff: just because you can't reduce the accuracy of enemies *not* punching you, you're able to increase your mitigation against targets that you *haven't* been able to wail on (i.e. ranged attackers). In my opinion, it would actually be a rather substantial buff overall since the acc debuff is pretty much worthless against players thanks to the often redundant accuracy players can pack, not to mention that it specifically requires you constantly smash Force Breach whenever someone new enters combat. The proposed Force Breach change would make it so that you only have to use Force Breach when you explicitly need to go full AoE or when you need to refresh the buff (i.e. once every 15 seconds), rather than any and every time someone new joins the fray (or just gets in range finally). Having to use a subpar attack *less* often while being able to get the mitigation benefits for yourself regardless of range and timing translates into a net gain, in my opinion, even when you factor in the loss of the (often pointless) 5% acc debuff on people punching your allies rather than you.
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Kitru
06.05.2013 , 02:25 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
you have to decide by yourself if you want the same spikiness but take substantially more damage then VGs+Guardians.
or have it the way it currently is but with the bosses miss less often but always hit for less as well
Your poor grasp of math, grammar, and punctuation notwithstanding, I'm going to ignore the rather inane blather you spewed forth with most of that post since most of it only serves to demonstrate your lack of grasp of the subject rather than any capability to contribute to the discussion. *This* statement, however, is *absolutely* demonstrative of your terrible grasp of the situation: your "fix" is to provide a *passive* (remember, that's what you said, because you explicitly wanted Defense to do something different for Consulars than other classes) that causes Shadows to take substantially more than VGs and Guards in order to achieve *parity* with their level of spikiness.

Assuming you've changed your idea into either an elective talent or a toggle of some kind (which you seem to be suggesting by saying "choose between"), you're *still* not grasping how terrible of an idea that is: you're telling Shadows that they either choose to have terrible mitigation and acceptable spikiness or good mitigation and terrible spikiness. *Neither* of those is an acceptable option. Just because you're *creating* options doesn't mean that they're *good* options, especially when the math explicitly says you're screwed either way. It would be like putting the spikiness fix on Force Technique so that, in order to have an acceptable level of spikiness, you have to throw away *absolutely everything else you're built around*.

This doesn't even go into the fact that it's almost assured that the devs will *never* create a mechanism by which one stat does something different for one class/spec than any others. It would be like asking for Alacrity to provide Bonus Damage instead of cast speed reduction: assuming it's even seen as a *good idea* (highly unlikely), doing so would be both programmatically complex and mathematically complex since you're having to calculate the contributions of one stat in multiple ways while creating systems in game to specifically transfer stats from one place to another in a variable manner (since you're asking for it to be an explicit multiplier on the final total stat).

Elaborating on a bad idea doesn't suddenly make it good. It was a bad idea when I went out and actively shot it down before. Now you're just demonstrating how much *worse* of an idea it is.
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DarthSpekulatius
06.05.2013 , 06:15 AM | #107
I'm sorry about Grammar and punctuation I do try my best but English isn't my native Language so all I can do is ask for a bit patience.
I'll try to simplify as much as possible
-5% Defence Chance
+5% Damage Reduction

my original 1/2 of defence chance was a bit over the top I guess, but 1/4 would keep it in reasonable areas
I'd like to have it scale with Tank-equipment.
can you say that's impossibly hard to Code without trying?
I can't that's why suggested it.

but even as Flat values I'd rather exchange my own mitigation, then lose Group mitigation.
even just the mitigation against M/T attacks I grant my Vanguard Co-Tank aswell as myself.

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Afieri
06.05.2013 , 06:16 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The best idea that fits within this design paradigm is the addition of a CD that increases Shield chance to 100% (i.e. a Shield version of Resilience) for 3-5 seconds on a ~1 minute CD. Shadows would be rewarded for predicting incoming damage spikes while requiring appropriate timing and creating a construct that prevents massive burst damage but only under properly executed conditions.

Complex attack string modifications and reliance of multitudinous conditionals doesn't equate to skill tanking. It equates to a variant form of RNG: if you *just so happen* to arrive at *these specific conditions* at *just the right time*, you'll take care of the spikiness issue. Instead of placing the dice roll in the hands of the attack system, you're placing it in the hands of the clock.
What if the procs were guaranteed? Getting a proc that is similar to conveyance where it can be consumed via abilities to create a more optimum mitigation for a particular scenario? But the proc will be consumed and utilised through any viable ability sequence. Please tell if I am flogging a dead horse, as I don't want to waste time considering ideas that won't actually positively effect shadows.
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Deadmice
06.05.2013 , 06:38 AM | #109
I feel FB is fine in how it is and that the taking big hits and turning them into a dot would be awesome for shadows and would help for the spikyness by just making the damage take longer to hit. It shouldn't bring up any balance issues because you're not actually taking any less damage then you would normally be taking. This ability could work on a damage threshold mechanic or it could work off of some charge system, like you built charges from just going about your rotation and those charges would help smooth out your spikes.

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MasterGladius
06.05.2013 , 09:25 AM | #110
I would still like to discuss how moving Masked Assault into Tier 2 would affect things. I haven't seen any feedback, good or bad, since I mentioned it.