Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
06.03.2013 , 10:10 AM | #91
One reason why this shouldn't be tied to Force Breach is situations where there are CC'd mobs mixed in with the rest - for example the Underworld Arms Traders in the S&V trash packs -- and if I do have to AE taunt, I really don't want to be taking even more spike damage that will chew up my remaining KW charges AND leave me without this proposed buff, either in Kitru's form or the stacking form proposed by Keyboardninja and Grallmate.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.03.2013 , 04:22 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Ancaglon View Post
One reason why this shouldn't be tied to Force Breach is situations where there are CC'd mobs mixed in with the rest - for example the Underworld Arms Traders in the S&V trash packs -- and if I do have to AE taunt, I really don't want to be taking even more spike damage that will chew up my remaining KW charges AND leave me without this proposed buff, either in Kitru's form or the stacking form proposed by Keyboardninja and Grallmate.
Well, in those selfsame situations right now, you'd doing it without the 5% acc debuff so there would be no change under the conditions you outline: you're not benefiting from the de/buff either way. At least with the changes we're recommending, you would benefit from the effect if you're using on targets that aren't CCd when you inevitably break the CC, along with the benefits of reduced spikiness: just pull the remaining enemies away from the CCd targets (which is what I'm always used to doing) and then let loose with the AoE.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
06.04.2013 , 08:31 AM | #93
A few ideas:

- Make each stack of harnessed shadows increase DR by 2%
- When accelerated project hits something, next attack is guaranteed to be shielded or could add a 6 sec boost to shield chance (10 - 20%)?
- every time an attack is defended, DR is increased by 1%, max of 5%.
- Procced shadow strike reduces damage of next incoming attack by 25%

It seems like making shadows less spiky involves a simple change of: increase DR by 10 -20% or increase absorb by a similar amount, or the complex methods of interweaving buffs and procs in the style that a skilled shadow tank will be able to utilise these buffs to provide a higher mitigation on select attacks.

An example could be:

When an accelerated project inflicts damage on a target affected by slow time and force breach it has a 30% chance to create an outer ring of kinetic ward that further increases shield chance for 20% over the next 6 attacks and provides the same kinetic bulwark effect of 1% increased absorb per shielded attack until the 6 charges are consumed. Can only be used while enemy is taunted.

The above example is not very good, and I think that stems from the fact that shadows have no short term debuffs to place on an enemy that can be utilised in order to allow a skilled player to maximise mitigation at their discretion. At the moment it's "an attack is coming that will cause my health pool grief if I don't shield or defend against it, pop deflection" whereas it should be "I see what you are doing there you sneaky boss person you, that attack is going to suck so I will perform this chain of abilities to make me take considerably less damage". But we don't actually have any debuffs that run out before they come off CD so any debuff related procs are just going off RNG as opposed to highly skilled playing. Maybe change force breach to a 6s debuff and create something like a Procced shadow strike on a force breach effected target gives an increase in some mitigation stat, or further decreases the enemies accuracy by a certain amount.

As you can probably tell, I am making all of this up as I go, so I'm not even sure if it is coherent. The ideas might be useful though
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

Deadmice's Avatar


Deadmice
06.04.2013 , 08:33 AM | #94
TBH I thought you were crazy when you said that high stat gear was BiS because I have always been under the assumption that High end gear with stat augs was the way to go. That way you get a healthy balance between health and mitigation, but I've noticed while getting my 72's I've been trading defense for Abs and health and it makes me feel real squishy. I might actually pick up the high stat mantra (maybe if i get around to regearing). But i do have to say that if i didn't have all this hp terminate would 1 shot me 100% of the time unless i had a CD running, and thrasher could probably 2-3 shot depending on unlucky rng with those 15k swipes.

I think having a skill like you said that turns giant hits into dots would be amazing, like any attack over Xk damage is turned into a dot. That shouldn't be hard to balance because you really aren't adding to their defensive ability, just making them a little smoother on the healing stage

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
06.04.2013 , 08:50 AM | #95
Just tacking onto my last post, another thought occurred to me.

What if refreshing kinetic ward while you had the accelerated project buff up made the next 2 attacks deal 50% damage but the kinetic ward only had 5 stacks or so due to the other 10 being used to decrease the damage done? Something like that where you choose which is more applicable? Using the procs that you get combined with other abilities consumes those procs in a similar fashion to conveyance on sages.
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
06.04.2013 , 08:50 AM | #96
how about fixing it from the Healer Side instead,
something like Trauma probe working only on unshielded Hits and gets stronger the bigger the hit has been. perhaps remove (tweak) the lockout time and Hp it heals for
Shouldn't that give some really nice synergy as well as giving Commandos something really unique without breaking the "I'm just doing my job" feeling they have now no fancy golden cycles no dust clouds and giggles nothing you'd ever notice until its gone that is.

Edit: and (accidentally) deal with the Shadow spikiness Problem as long as there's a Commando Heal

I wouldn't want a changed play style... again... on jet another shadow spec this time my main spec.
the changes to kinetic made it so that the spec performs best when played like one might expect from reading the ability&talent descriptions leave it exactly where it is!

changing the buff from Accuracy to DR would be nice but make the Guardian + Shadow combo even stronger
also would/should it work with two shadows and give a doubled benefit?
it would also decrease spikiness for everybody not just the shadow himself but I think most of us agree the others are just fine (I think so from a Scoundrel healers Perspective anyway)
how about translating 50% of our defence chance into DR it would mean that for us unlike everybody else Defence affects F/T as well as M/R you could perhaps even make it a baseline Consular Passive

kwestone's Avatar


kwestone
06.04.2013 , 10:18 AM | #97
After gearing my Juggernaut to 66/69 level armoring and mods I can say with absolute certainty that Assassin tanking is just ****.

I am tired of repair bills because of mobs of more than 3 killing me in 3 seconds, even with every cooldown and a stim popped.

My jugg can do things at a lower gear level than my sin still can and my sin has almost complete 72 level gear. I am retiring that toon until something is done.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.04.2013 , 10:19 AM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
- Make each stack of harnessed shadows increase DR by 2%
HS stacks are actively consumed in order to generate a substantial portion of our threat and maintain resource efficiency (just look at the comparative costs of everything else we use with the exception of TkT; we get terrible ratios of damage-to-resource because TkT is so friggin' efficient and amazing), not to mention how much it affects our total self healing. By doing this, you'd essentially be telling Shadows to *never* use TkT, which is a *terrible* idea.

Quote:
- When accelerated project hits something, next attack is guaranteed to be shielded or could add a 6 sec boost to shield chance (10 - 20%)?
Boosting Shield chance, unless it's to 100%, won't reduce spikiness effectively because the problem isn't when Shadows *do* Shield an attack; the problem is when we *don't* (even if we had a 95% chance to dodge or shield an attack; with so little flat DR, in the given content design paradigm, spikiness would still be a problem thanks to the single big hits that go out; the big hits are simply coin flips of doom for Shadows). Doing it for only a single attack won't do it as well, since it would almost *assuredly* get eaten by a basic attack rather than the intended big attack.

Quote:
- every time an attack is defended, DR is increased by 1%, max of 5%.
This *could* work, but the lack of player control over the effect is worrisome. For comparison, look at Power Screen for VGs: it procs off of Shield *or* Ion Cell proc. It would be better if this effect activated upon any defend or shield (since Shadows have massive Shield, it's kind of antithetical to ignore Shield chance for such an effect) as well as any Combat Technique proc (or critical hit with Project). Hell, you could tie it to any instance of a Shadow healing themselves (i.e. CT proc, HS TkT use, etc.). *That* would be both thematically appropriate (healing yourself makes you tougher) and mechanically interesting.

Quote:
- Procced shadow strike reduces damage of next incoming attack by 25%
The same thing applies to this as applies to your idea for increased Shield chance on the next attack. Single attack effects like this wouldn't reliably fix the spikiness problem.

Quote:
It seems like making shadows less spiky involves a simple change of: increase DR by 10 -20% or increase absorb by a similar amount
Increasing absorb is *not* going to make Shadow tanks less spiky. As I said before, the risk to Shadows isn't how *common* spikes are. It's their *magnitude*. Also, unless you're referencing increasing DR as a percentage of the current percentage mitigation (which is a strange way to reference it), 10-20% is *way* too much. Even then, the sweet spot is 4% DR or thereabouts. The 7% you indicate with your "increase by 20%" would be *way* too much.

Quote:
When an accelerated project inflicts damage on a target affected by slow time and force breach it has a 30% chance to create an outer ring of kinetic ward that further increases shield chance for 20% over the next 6 attacks and provides the same kinetic bulwark effect of 1% increased absorb per shielded attack until the 6 charges are consumed. Can only be used while enemy is taunted.
That effect is almost ludicrously overcomplicated. First off, you're requiring 4 separate effects: taunt (which can't be maintained constantly and, in any fight with a tank swap, *shouldn't*), Particle Acceleration, Slow Time, *and* Force Breach (the last of which means that you'd have a hard time using this in any fight with CC). The requirement of the taunt is, by far, the most inane of all of those. The devs learned a lot from requiring the Sunder effect for Guardian Slash/Plasma Brand: it doesn't work out well, especially when you're trying to make it a fundamental aspect of the class (which is what you're trying to do here).

I'll mention it again here, providing partial Shield and Absorb increases *does not* reduce spikiness effectively. The only effective measures are either increases of Shield chance to 100% (such that you *can't* not Shield and thereby cause the worst case to just be a manageable Shield), increases to DR (such that, when you *do* take damage, you take less, so the worst case isn't as bad), or some kind of substantial absorb shield that can be used on a short CD that allows you to soak additional damage when you need to (self healing isn't so important as it being an absorb shield, since self healing is *after* the fact and absorb shields are before; the problem isn't generally recovering from spike damage; it's the spike damage or the couple attacks immediately after killing the Shadow tank).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.04.2013 , 10:26 AM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Deadmice View Post
But i do have to say that if i didn't have all this hp terminate would 1 shot me 100% of the time unless i had a CD running, and thrasher could probably 2-3 shot depending on unlucky rng with those 15k swipes.
This is the primary issue that I have. Guardians and VGs are entirely capable of just sitting around with whatever distribution they please (since, you know, a *massive* portion of their survivability derives from armor rating, which is a functionally static value) while tanking absolutely fine, and, in fact, often *better* than Shadow tanks because they're not susceptible to major spike damage causing them to die. The "defense" of being *forced* to stack HP to survive big attacks when Shadows are explicitly designed to *be* the mitigation tanks is just spitting in the fact of the players. A Shadow shouldn't be forced to have 50% more hp than a Guardian or VG should just because the fights are designed around being a VG or a Guardian and packing a *massive* amount of DR rather than stat based mitigation, especially when you look at the terrible conversion rate between Endurance and mitigation stats (losing 500 mitigation stats, fully a quarter of the absolute *top end* mitigation budget is going to net you 6180 hp while dropping your total mitigation by a substantial amount).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
06.04.2013 , 10:40 AM | #100
In all honesty, the example I gave was meant to be ridiculously over complicated and not actually a realistic model of what I expected to be implemented, but it was meant to highlight the fact that if we are "skill tanks" to require us to have "skill" that involves more than a bit of proc watching combined with resource watching. Placing a choice in the players hands that will directly influence their mitigation there and then (or at least in the near future) that requires some sort of a set up appeals to my notion of "skill". The whole spikiness of shadows is one thing, but if the solution implemented makes us boring to play, then it just seems to detract from the whole "skill tank" aspect. And by that I don't mean "look ma, I chose to use resilience on that attack" in terms of skill, more of a "I know this guy will hit me harder than usual in about 4-5 GCD's I am going to proactively do something about significantly reducing that damage without having to pop a cool down". This is off topic slightly I know, but I think that a kind of "high risk, high return" implementation upon shadow tanks ability to actively control their mitigation would be nice as opposed to what we have now. And kitru, I have no idea about numbers and how to calculate them, I am more arguing the ideas rather than values, but I am fairly certain that you picked up on that.

Except for one thing, the increased DR on harnessed shadows stacks, why not look at it as an added bonus? When you get a stack you get some added mitigation thrown in there, you still use your tkt, but scale the DR numbers so its less appealing to hang onto the stacks? Again arguing ideas not numbers


EDIT: Prepares for destruction
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.