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Whirlwind, why there should be the option to have it instant

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Whirlwind, why there should be the option to have it instant

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.21.2013 , 04:03 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by -Holmes View Post
1.
CC> Start Capping > Enemy doesn't break CC and you cap successfully.
2.
CC> Start Capping > Enemy breaks CC to stop cap > Combat stealth > CC > Cap.
2. Stay away far enough from node not to get combat sapped > no cc.
2. AoE taunt combat Stealth > no cc.

This is Assassin training 101, padawan you are dismissed.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.21.2013 , 04:16 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
2. Stay away far enough from node not to get combat sapped > no cc.
2. AoE taunt combat Stealth > no cc.

This is Assassin training 101, padawan you are dismissed.
Read my post. I know it's long, but I think it's worthwhile.

As for AoE taunt... if the stealther hits vanish + sap simultaneously, you won't have time to react. No one can react that fast, even if they are prepared for it. Best scenario might be that they get their AoE taunt off, but due to latency they'll be sapped, still.

But I digress. Opinions vary about ninja capping. I want Instant Force Lift back, so... bump.

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.21.2013 , 04:19 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Read my post. I know it's long, but I think it's worthwhile.

As for AoE taunt... if the stealther hits vanish + sap simultaneously, you won't have time to react. No one can react that fast, even if they are prepared for it. Best scenario might be that they get their AoE taunt off, but due to latency they'll be sapped, still.

But I digress. Opinions vary about ninja capping. I want Instant Force Lift back, so... bump.
I beg to differ. Done it more than once. And I did read your entire post.

Sidrath's Avatar


Sidrath
05.22.2013 , 06:12 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
Aside from assassins, operatives and snipers especially are fine in this regard. The only classes that wouldn't be are Mara's and Juggs, who shouldn't be defending anyway.
Given the sheer importance of doing node defence well, I'd be very wary of giving instant whirlwind back at this juncture. My view is perhaps slightly tainted by playing a Juggernaut as main, but I cringe at the idea that one class should get a -trivial- ninjacap against a Jugg defender. As it stands, if you had instawhirlwind as a Sin facing a jugg defender in CW:

1. Approach in stealth, plant phasewalk on turret, opposite side from defender (I'm assuming defender is staying at the right distance, on one of the corners).
2. Sap -> portal -> cap. This forces the cc break; I've faced this situation and the time it takes to strafe into LoS>Saber Throw is longer than the time it takes the Sin to portal->initiate cap.
3. Having forced my cc break and Saber Throw, just cap again. I now have to Force Leap or get in 10m to Choke; whatever it is, just insta-ww and cap away.

Call me nuts but I don't think mezzes should last the same duration as the cap timer, let alone be longer than caps (like in Ancient Hypergates). I might be less averse to the notion if my class had a viable tool for interrupting at range, perhaps - even if it was high up in only one of my trees, I'd accept that. But until then, objective-focus wins games, and insta-whirlwind would completely bar two ACs from taking on one of the most important roles in a CW or AH.
Sidrath - JuggernautSídrath - Powertech

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.22.2013 , 07:25 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Sidrath View Post
Given the sheer importance of doing node defence well, I'd be very wary of giving instant whirlwind back at this juncture. My view is perhaps slightly tainted by playing a Juggernaut as main, but I cringe at the idea that one class should get a -trivial- ninjacap against a Jugg defender. As it stands, if you had instawhirlwind as a Sin facing a jugg defender in CW:

1. Approach in stealth, plant phasewalk on turret, opposite side from defender (I'm assuming defender is staying at the right distance, on one of the corners).
2. Sap -> portal -> cap. This forces the cc break; I've faced this situation and the time it takes to strafe into LoS>Saber Throw is longer than the time it takes the Sin to portal->initiate cap.
3. Having forced my cc break and Saber Throw, just cap again. I now have to Force Leap or get in 10m to Choke; whatever it is, just insta-ww and cap away.

Call me nuts but I don't think mezzes should last the same duration as the cap timer, let alone be longer than caps (like in Ancient Hypergates). I might be less averse to the notion if my class had a viable tool for interrupting at range, perhaps - even if it was high up in only one of my trees, I'd accept that. But until then, objective-focus wins games, and insta-whirlwind would completely bar two ACs from taking on one of the most important roles in a CW or AH.
The possebility of ninjacapping is neccesary for organized play. However, a jugg should NEVER be guarding anything.

Did think of using phase walk that way around though, thats good stuff.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.22.2013 , 10:07 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
The possebility of ninjacapping is neccesary for organized play. However, a jugg should NEVER be guarding anything.

Did think of using phase walk that way around though, thats good stuff.
For organized play you don't need to use an unnecessary amount of CC in order to ninja cap. The best way to ninja cap in organized play should be to simply 1v1 the defender and have your team at mid stall people from running to the defender's aid. It is not like the time to kill is high in this game and stealthers would still be the best defenders, due to the possibility of vanish-stalling.

As for unorganized play, i.e normal warzones... well. I can't honestly say that it is difficult to turn the game around as a stealther, due to the sheer amount of CC we have at our disposal. It is easy. Perhaps not as easy in rated warzones, but we still have a generous amount of tools for the job. Sap -> insta WW -> Sap. Of course, Operatives still have flashbang, which makes ninja caps an invalid argument for nerfing insta whirlwind. So, again, if that was the reason Bioware nerfed it, I would rather have seen them nerf sap across the board.

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.23.2013 , 02:53 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
For organized play you don't need to use an unnecessary amount of CC in order to ninja cap. The best way to ninja cap in organized play should be to simply 1v1 the defender and have your team at mid stall people from running to the defender's aid. It is not like the time to kill is high in this game and stealthers would still be the best defenders, due to the possibility of vanish-stalling.
That is not posseble on all maps. There is absolutely no excuse for backup to arrive late in ancient hypergate for example. The run is simply too short.

Hell, an operative or sniper could roll there from the middle in 4 seconds.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.23.2013 , 04:25 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
That is not posseble on all maps. There is absolutely no excuse for backup to arrive late in ancient hypergate for example. The run is simply too short.

Hell, an operative or sniper could roll there from the middle in 4 seconds.
Well, Ancient Hypergate was supposed to be a "death match-y" warzone. As of right now, it is the most sensetive to ninja caps. Having a 2-second room for error makes it really easy to cap.

Bit off-topic, but personally I would've preferred if the Republic and Empire started with one Pylon each that could not be capped, and have the main focus on the Orbs and the deathmatch in the middle.

Sidrath's Avatar


Sidrath
05.23.2013 , 05:58 AM | #19
Definitely agree that AH is, contrary to devtalk about it being 'deathmatchy', the most ninja-sensitive WZ in Regs. Equally willing to believe, though, that an RWZ team makes it somewhat counterable with good communication and dedicated rapid-respondents. I still get the impression that portal allows for all kinds of neat tricks that make me horribly jealous.

Regarding Agents' Flashbang still being instant, the only difference with Sins that I can point to is that without a trick like Phasewalk*, the time it takes them to sap->run around turret in CW->cap is JUST long enough for me to wait out the sap, strafe and Saber Throw. If they recap, I can leap in, trinket the flashbang and proceed as normal on full resolve; if my team isn't swapping me out for someone with a fresh cc breaker by the time my resolve is back down, then my team screwed up. Phasewalk may be the single biggest culprit in all this: it gives the means of forcing out a cc break on the opener, which I don't think existed before. From there, it's game over for me if you have a second instant mez. Maybe that's the no-win situation Bioware wanted to remove from the game for JK/SW.

*I have yet to see a Scoundrel/Agent successfully sap->Exfiltrate+break LoS->cap in the requisite short time to make my eat mez->strafe->Saber Throw a losing strategy; I always have just enough margin to pull it off. I'm led to believe that the roll just isn't precise enough, or the right range, or fast enough to allow the class to force a cc break on the opener. That's not to say it's impossible, and I'm open to correction if some Scoundrels/Agents have been able to achieve this.
Sidrath - JuggernautSídrath - Powertech

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.23.2013 , 07:37 AM | #20
Regarding Agents...

The way I often do, in case of a careful defender, is to strafe past and hit sap as late as I can. There is a slight delay timer on agent's sap which makes it more effective than a Sith Assassin's (also, it seems to me that the further away you are, the more time you buy yourself due to the slight flight time of the sap projectile). If you're lucky you can sap the target when you are 12-13m away from it. Hug the turret, take cover and cap. Granted, haven't tried this in RWZs since I haven't played any with my Agent, but I've done this a lot in Normal WZs with successful results.

Going slightly off-topic;
Phase Walk was unnecessary. When I first heard of it I prayed that Bioware would change their minds and give us something else. Assassins are, undoubtedly, the most mobile class in the game. Yes, opreatives can now reach objectives faster than any other class, but they are very vulnerable to slows, not to mention they have to burn all their energy + adrenaline probe in order to reach an objective (if lolrolling wihtout pause). Assassins still have force speed which is much better than exfiltrate, in my opinion. Not to mention, they have the best cooldown in the entire game; Force Shroud. They did not need more mobility.

Assassins were arguably the best class for objective play before 2.0 as well. Phase walk is an incredibly powerful tool for objective play. I don't get why Bioware thought it a good idea to give it to assassins. They should have given us a melee version of Death from Above, instead of buffing Death Field for Madness (seeing as both Deception and Madness had rather lacklustre AoE in 1.7).

Perhaps this is overly simplified logic, but... Madness wasn't ever an overpowered tree. It was very potent in the right hands, but it still paled in comparison to the usefulness of Darkness Assassins. I think it is fair to say, Darkness was far superior to Madness in PvP. Phase Walk was given as a baseline ability to all specs and it cost Madness some of its unique utility, making the already "underperforming" spec worse, and the strong spec more powerful.

Honestly though, it feels like Phase Walk is just a gimmicky copy of similar abilities from other MMOs (Monk's Transendence in WoW, Thieves Infiltrator's Strike in GW2...) that they introduced to the game because of it's cool factor. I doubt they actually considered the repercussions, and as such, our Madness spec had to bite the dust. Which is largely why I don't play anymore.