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Whirlwind, why there should be the option to have it instant

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Whirlwind, why there should be the option to have it instant

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.19.2013 , 06:07 PM | #1
Exilove again, this time on the subject of whirlwind.. and exactly the reason why it should be instant.. or atleast for one of our specs.

So yeah, Assassins/shadows.. all the same. All melee.
Now because of the way we are designed being near targets is basically essential. However, due to our stealth abilities we come together in an excellent package to ninjacap, or otherwise defend a node.

But now we lost our only instant ranged cc ninjacapping against anyone that actually thinks about how to handle against an attack, ninjacapping has basically become imposseble.
Whirlwind will always be interrupted, cc'd on, or otherwise evaded because it has a cast time.
Getting this cast off is practically imposseble because it is the only cast we have that is worth interrupting to others. Hence it will be, every single time.

Whirlwind has because a useless ability for the assassin. It's too easy to interrupt.
And if it can't be interrupted, it will be line of sighted.
There is no way you can get off any whirlwinds anymore that are actually valueable for the team not to speak about the fact that any experienced player will not allow you to ninjacap anything with it anymore.
There is no thought to choice of action anymore by the defender other than to stay the hell away from the capture node to prevent being combat stealth-maze capped.

Give us the ability to talent whirlwind instant again, or else you might aswell completely redesign it as right now it's completely useless in PvP.
Evolixe [ToFN/The Harbinger] Exilove
PvE AMR - Livestream - PvP AMR - BiS PvP Mad/Bal - BiS PvP Dec/Infi
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Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.19.2013 , 06:20 PM | #2
I loved the tactical aspect of instant whirlwind for anything but ninja capping. Ninja capping in this game is generously easy. For that reason, I could almost agree with the whirlwind nerf...

However, I don't. Instant Whirlwind was useful for so many more things, and Bioware said that because of the addition of Phase Walk, we had too many "escape abilities", that's why it had to be nerfed... I played a Balance Shadow passionately, and I'll take instant force lift over phase walk any day. It was a very important asset of our spec. Bioware seemed to recognize this themselves, when they wrote the blog as to why they wouldn't be buffing Infiltration/Deception ages ago (they claimed that Balance/Madness was a flexible spell with good control. Well, GG ruining that).

Now this isn't going to win me any popularity, but I applaud Bioware for adressing the concern of ninja capping. Ninja capping should either require two players, or an attacker actually defeating the defender. That is my opinion. As such, I'd encourage Bioware to nerf Mindmaze/Sleep Dart (aka sap) in pvp. Either make it unusable in PvP altogether or reduce it's duration by half (also cut down the resolve it generates, to compensate). This way we can still use sap to stall, and if used correctly it can change games. It just won't be as easy as before, with ninja capping.
Lambaste!
Best talent in the Galaxy!

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.19.2013 , 06:28 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Now this isn't going to win me any popularity, but I applaud Bioware for adressing the concern of ninja capping. Ninja capping should either require two players, or an attacker actually defeating the defender.
If you got ninjacapped, even when instant whirlwind was a thing, you were defeated.

There was absolutely no reason why any good player would allow him/herself to be ninjacapped at any point in time if there was a thought about what ability/asset to use when. It was perfectly posseble to avoid a ninjacap alltogether even with us having the possebility of ccing for 8 seconds 2 times in quick succession.
Evolixe [ToFN/The Harbinger] Exilove
PvE AMR - Livestream - PvP AMR - BiS PvP Mad/Bal - BiS PvP Dec/Infi
Quote:
Open yourself to suggestions from others.
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Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
05.19.2013 , 07:17 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
If you got ninjacapped, even when instant whirlwind was a thing, you were defeated.

There was absolutely no reason why any good player would allow him/herself to be ninjacapped at any point in time if there was a thought about what ability/asset to use when. It was perfectly posseble to avoid a ninjacap alltogether even with us having the possebility of ccing for 8 seconds 2 times in quick succession.
I agree with this, Ninjacapping is now alot harder. Mind Trap helps with it but is much less useful in utility than Whirlwind. though it is a bit longer of a CC. Though If you force cloak and Re CC them after they break CC they cant break CC. and you can ninja cap. though you would need a total of 80 force to work with in surplus.

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.19.2013 , 07:21 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
I agree with this, Ninjacapping is now alot harder. Mind Trap helps with it but is much less useful in utility than Whirlwind. though it is a bit longer of a CC. Though If you force cloak and Re CC them after they break CC they cant break CC. and you can ninja cap. though you would need a total of 80 force to work with in surplus.
That's not even the problem, but there is absolutely no reason for the defender to get within melee range of the defending node. As an assassin you got more than enough tools to stay away and still deny a cap. Not to speak about the fact that you can just AoE taunt yourself in combat as soon as you see the enemy assassin use Force Cloak.

Aside from assassins, operatives and snipers especially are fine in this regard. The only classes that wouldn't be are Mara's and Juggs, who shouldn't be defending anyway.
Evolixe [ToFN/The Harbinger] Exilove
PvE AMR - Livestream - PvP AMR - BiS PvP Mad/Bal - BiS PvP Dec/Infi
Quote:
Open yourself to suggestions from others.
There is so much to be learned from other people no matter how good you are.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.19.2013 , 09:12 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
If you got ninjacapped, even when instant whirlwind was a thing, you were defeated.

There was absolutely no reason why any good player would allow him/herself to be ninjacapped at any point in time if there was a thought about what ability/asset to use when. It was perfectly posseble to avoid a ninjacap alltogether even with us having the possebility of ccing for 8 seconds 2 times in quick succession.
The odds are still in our favour. I don't have any videos or diplomas to prove my credibility, so I'll toss a random example of how easily you can ninja cap--even against a player who is taking precautions.

In this scenario, there is a Juggernaut standing a good distance away from the turret, at one of the sides in Civil War. You could force speed, sap him and break LoS and start capping. This might force the Juggernaut to pop his CC-breaker, at which point you've already won the base. If he doesn't pop it, he is left at the mercy of latency. It all depends on where he stands, but in this scenario he is standing so that he can easily take a step to the side to interrupt. Still, taking that one step to the side takes time...

Anyways, a better way to ensure ninja cap would be to stand by the turret itself. Pop instant whirlwind first, not sap, and start capping. Do it simultaneously, and the Juggernaut will have to break out of the Whirlwind. If he uses saber throw and not force leap, you can break LoS and restart capping. Then he'll have to come within 10m to interrupt you, at which point you can vanish -> sap -> cap.

And just to prove my experience; best way to sap+cap is to sap -> taunt -> cap. There is no quicker way to exit stealth. For operatives, you use sap -> cover -> cap. It is arguably easier for operatives, since the animation timer for sleep dart is longer than mindmaze. There is also a brief flight time on sleep dart, which could net you ~0.5 grace time. Anyways, my point is that ninja capping in this game is heavily in favour of the capper, and not the defender. Which is why it is critical to have a stealther on defense for more serious games.

And I apologize if I come off as prude or condescending. It is not my intent, I'm just very frustrated as of late. Mainly because of the changes made to Balance/Madness for Shadows and Assassins. They not only made the spec a lot more boring, but they also ruined its viability for pvp. Right now it is a glorified AoE DoT spammer that might net some amazing numbers on the Scoreboard, but won't be worth a damn in serious pvp. Bioware once dubbed the spec as a "great well-rounded high utility role" and they reduced it to a "drain skirmisher" in 2.0.

I just want my well-rounded high utility role spec back. Instant Whirlwind is required.

[edit]
I forgot to mention;
If Bioware thought ninja capping was cause to nerf Instant Whirlwind, I personally would've rather seen them nerf Sap...
Lambaste!
Best talent in the Galaxy!

cycao's Avatar


cycao
05.19.2013 , 09:22 PM | #7
It would be nice for madness assassins to get a little love. Something like moving it high up into the tree so those that actually play madness can utilize this ability because lets face it, madness is probably one of the weakest trees in the game.

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
05.21.2013 , 02:56 AM | #8
The ability was removed specifically because of phase walk + madness. With phase walk being added, the devs felt it was too many kiting tools to have phase walk AND instant whirlwind on a spec, when we already have overload force speed 2s root etc. It's on a dev post somewhere that I have long since forgotten the location of.

The only problem with that logic of course is that snipers exist.
/rant
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Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
05.21.2013 , 03:53 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
The ability was removed specifically because of phase walk + madness. With phase walk being added, the devs felt it was too many kiting tools to have phase walk AND instant whirlwind on a spec, when we already have overload force speed 2s root etc. It's on a dev post somewhere that I have long since forgotten the location of.

The only problem with that logic of course is that snipers exist.
/rant
Well that just... is dumb. Phase Walk is a horrible ability to use as an escape mechanic. It has far more, and better practical uses than that.

Whirlwind too, by the way.. who the hell uses whirlwind to get away from someone? It has far better uses for the cooldown it has..
Evolixe [ToFN/The Harbinger] Exilove
PvE AMR - Livestream - PvP AMR - BiS PvP Mad/Bal - BiS PvP Dec/Infi
Quote:
Open yourself to suggestions from others.
There is so much to be learned from other people no matter how good you are.

-Holmes's Avatar


-Holmes
05.21.2013 , 04:01 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
Exilove again, this time on the subject of whirlwind.. and exactly the reason why it should be instant.. or atleast for one of our specs.

So yeah, Assassins/shadows.. all the same. All melee.
Now because of the way we are designed being near targets is basically essential. However, due to our stealth abilities we come together in an excellent package to ninjacap, or otherwise defend a node.

But now we lost our only instant ranged cc ninjacapping against anyone that actually thinks about how to handle against an attack, ninjacapping has basically become imposseble.
Whirlwind will always be interrupted, cc'd on, or otherwise evaded because it has a cast time.
Getting this cast off is practically imposseble because it is the only cast we have that is worth interrupting to others. Hence it will be, every single time.

Whirlwind has because a useless ability for the assassin. It's too easy to interrupt.
And if it can't be interrupted, it will be line of sighted.
There is no way you can get off any whirlwinds anymore that are actually valueable for the team not to speak about the fact that any experienced player will not allow you to ninjacap anything with it anymore.
There is no thought to choice of action anymore by the defender other than to stay the hell away from the capture node to prevent being combat stealth-maze capped.

Give us the ability to talent whirlwind instant again, or else you might aswell completely redesign it as right now it's completely useless in PvP.
1.
CC> Start Capping > Enemy doesn't break CC and you cap successfully.
2.
CC> Start Capping > Enemy breaks CC to stop cap > Combat stealth > CC > Cap.