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A new kind of question on shield vs. accuracy.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
A new kind of question on shield vs. accuracy.

Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
05.18.2013 , 12:17 PM | #1
Ok.... Up front... I am no math genius. That is why I am posting and asking. I am, however, a Con-Log guy, and have forever been cursed to be the Devil's Advocate.
My assumptions:
Given that Defense and Absorb share a pool, and Shield is separate, shield is the driving factor of my argument as being the focal point of everything. Meaning, everything is based of shield rating as our starting point.

As shield goes up, the value of absorb goes up and the value of defense goes down and vice verse.
If you could have 90% shield then you would of course want lots of absorb to compliment that but if you only had 10% shield then you would want a metric crap-ton of Defense to compensate for a lack of shielding. (reasonable assumption)

In KBN and Dipstick's threads (by someone...not necessarily them), and on Denchet's spreadsheet, the comment has been made that you "Can't bring shield down low enough to actually be *optimized*"
(My apologies....I was going to link the acual comments from those threads, but I gave up digging through the 100 pages of info)

We have this general concept about more is better. Has anyone contemplated or thought about it from the view of how shield impacts the other stats at lower levels? If shield gets lowered to this "optimal" point, it's gonna change the ratio of how we stack Defense vs. Absorb.

So my question is....what would the math look like if we took some accuracy? Not because accuracy is good, but because it would actually bring our shield down to an "optimal level" and cause us to adjust the Def-Abs balance. Could that actually benefit our overall mitigation?

So in other words....could taking TOO MUCH shield actually be skewing the numbers?
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
05.18.2013 , 01:20 PM | #2
losing mitigation does not help you mitigate. there was a rare instabnce where losing 14 points of mitigation total increased the mitigation by .04% and that was because you were able to trade something like 91 shield for 77 defense or absorb, which got the stat distribution closer to optimal with minimal loss total stat points, but that was a rare case, and even then that trade of .04% mitigation also would make you lose 2k health, so it still wasnt quite worth it.

typically, if you can increase your total stat pool, that will alsoway benifit you more than trying to get closer to optimal.

an example is where people use the 32 power mods instead of the 52 crit ones because they dont want crit, but they fail to realize that crit is around 70 to 80% as fgood as power for many classes, which puts those crit mods just barley ahead of the power ones.

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Kitru
05.18.2013 , 01:55 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Grumpftard View Post
So my question is....what would the math look like if we took some accuracy? Not because accuracy is good, but because it would actually bring our shield down to an "optimal level" and cause us to adjust the Def-Abs balance. Could that actually benefit our overall mitigation?
You're operating under a bit of a logical fallacy here. You're assuming that having lower shield would end up increasing your total mitigation. This is not true. More shield (i.e. more mitigation) is *always* better. It's might not match the optimal distribution, but it provides more mitigation than sacrificing Shield for Accuracy. The only way you could actually improve your mitigation by sacrificing Shield is if you could sacrifice it for a *different mitigation stat*. Since you can't, you should *never* sac Shield from enhs. This is why the best optimal distro calcs take the "minimum" amount of Shield into account.
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Denchet
05.18.2013 , 01:57 PM | #4
More mitigation is almost always better, even if it screws up the optimum stat ratios. There are a couple of instances where I would consider sacrificing shield for accuracy, but neither of them are an issue in current content.

A fight that had a really early tank swap, so you would have to save your taunts. If you got a few misses right off the bat, then DPS would pull threat and you would have no way of getting it back because you have to save your taunt for the tank swap. This is currently not an issue on any of the fights, and is rarely going to be an issue because we all have AoE taunts as well. That being said, they could theoretically design something where positioning means AoE taunts would screw up the tank swap.

Fights where you personally absolutely have to interrupt something. On the Golden Fury fight, I am always on droid duty with a Sentinel. We each interrupt one of the droids. Occasionally my interrupt misses, which I am assuming is because I am only at 94% accuracy. It could just be a bug and interrupts aren't supposed to miss, idk. Anyway, assuming its not a bug, this is a really annoying time to not be accuracy capped, but we have never actually had anyone die from it. They could theoretically release content where if interrupt misses, someone dies. Imagine if that beam on the golden fury fight one shot people on nightmare mode, for example.

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Kitru
05.18.2013 , 02:29 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Denchet View Post
Occasionally my interrupt misses, which I am assuming is because I am only at 94% accuracy. It could just be a bug and interrupts aren't supposed to miss, idk.
Interrupts are designed such that they can miss. I know this because you can't be interrupted while Resilience is active (it can be put to great use during the Gree Event when you want to steal a pylon click from people camping the node). I'm curious if it was *intended* for them to miss in PvE content, especially since there are a fair number of "interrupt or wipe" mechanics at various points in the game. The simple solution would be to provide interrupts with a bit of additional accuracy (say, equal to the additional Resist chance that NPCs got in 2.0), but that's only if it's an unintended consequence.
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Marb
05.19.2013 , 01:34 AM | #6
Considering that interrupts are not classified as force/tech/melee/ranged abilities and have no damage component, it is very odd that they behave this way. I feel they shouldn't miss at all when interrupt immunity is a strictly unique kind of effect that already exists.

On the same topic, I would really like mobs and player abilities that are immune to interrupts to have a unique gui for their cast-bar (like WoW). Not a huge deal but its a really nice quality of life thing. This way you could 'let' players be able to burn their interrupts even if the target is immune, as the cast bar is kinda displaying that information already. Not a fan of the arbitrary "Immune to interrupts" prompt as red error text.
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Kitru
05.19.2013 , 09:43 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
Considering that interrupts are not classified as force/tech/melee/ranged abilities
I'm kind of curious where you're getting this from. There isn't anything explicitly mentioned on tooltips (beyond the intuited information gained from damage types) that explicitly states what type of attack it is. Force Pull deals no damage, but it's a Force attack (I know because I can Resilience through that). The same is true for the interrupts. Just because it deals no damage so that we can't intuit from the tooltip what type of attack it is doesn't mean that it's not an attack with an attack type. *Everything* that affects an enemy is an attack. It just depends on whether it's an attack that deals damage or not.

Quote:
On the same topic, I would really like mobs and player abilities that are immune to interrupts to have a unique gui for their cast-bar (like WoW).
This would be amazing. At the least, it would take away some of the guesswork when fighting new enemies to determine whether there's even a point. In general, you have to look at their buff bar to learn it (any time the target is immune to interrupts, there's a buff on their bar whether it's permanent or temporary and only there for that specific cast) and that sometimes takes just a bit too long for you to interrupt in time, especially when you're fighting an enemy that has a lot of casts, some of which you want to let go and others that you definitely want to interrupt.
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Eternalnight
05.19.2013 , 03:50 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'm kind of curious where you're getting this from.
Have you not ever looked into your abilities window in the game? It does list the ability type on the right side when it lists all the abilities you have.

There are not just 4 ability types. There are 6. In addition to Melee, Ranged, Force and Tech, there are also Passive and Active.

Taunts and interrupts are not listed as melee/ranged/force/tech, but active. Same is true for Force Pull by the way.

That you can resist force pull with Resilience/Force Shroud may have more to do with the tooltip not telling the whole truth, as it often does not.

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Kitru
05.19.2013 , 05:13 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
Have you not ever looked into your abilities window in the game? It does list the ability type on the right side when it lists all the abilities you have.
That must've been added after I stopped reading the tooltips.
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XAtrophi
05.19.2013 , 05:23 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
There are not just 4 ability types. There are 6. In addition to Melee, Ranged, Force and Tech, there are also Passive and Active.
erm, just a quick fyi here but Passive and active arent the same as damage type, they just describe the type of ability:
Active being one you actively use(meaning you click it)
Passive being an ability thats always on (Usually in regards to talents )