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2.0 Tanking Spreadsheet

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
2.0 Tanking Spreadsheet

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.20.2013 , 04:46 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Denchet View Post
Are we absolutely sure that's how the DR debuff works? I asked about it in another thread because I wasn't sure, and was told it just adds to your DR. If its multiplicative instead of additive that's a pretty easy thing to change. Same thing with the accuracy debuff, do we know for sure whether or not that just adds to dodge chance? I guess the same also goes with the innate 90% accuracy skills enemies have.
The damage debuff is multiplicative because damage reduction is applied locally to the target whereas damage dealt is applied locally by the attacker. The accuracy debuff is additive because the Defense chance is factored in by directly reducing the target's accuracy. It was tested way back when at release.
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leto_cleon's Avatar


leto_cleon
05.20.2013 , 05:41 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Denchet View Post
I honestly never gave those values much thought. I always completely ignored them when using that spreadsheet, and just focused on minimizing squishiness. I would also have no way of knowing how one should properly balance squishiness and spikiness, so I'm not sure how to give spikiness any real meaning.
If I recall correctly, high stacking on defence rating lowered squishiness much more than stacking shield/absorb. The problem however was high defence was more spikey due to hits not hitting, and hitting. The low shield or low absorb meant low mitigation on the hits. Bad defence rolls and spike damage are more difficult to heal. To smoothen this out, points could be shifted from defence to shield/absorb (this was on my Guardian).

So just for illustration some pre-2.0 stats,

356 Def, 569 Sh, 410 Ab (0.2846 Squishiness, 0.22393 Sigma Squishiness)
On use Def Relic: 671 Def, 569 Sh, 410 Ab (0.26011 Squishiness, 0.22848 Sigma Squishiness)

Denchet's Avatar


Denchet
05.20.2013 , 06:38 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The damage debuff is multiplicative because damage reduction is applied locally to the target whereas damage dealt is applied locally by the attacker. The accuracy debuff is additive because the Defense chance is factored in by directly reducing the target's accuracy. It was tested way back when at release.
Alright, that should be easy enough to fix. I'll go through and fix that and also make the two debuffs separate values that you can "toggle" on and off depending on group comp rather than putting them in base stats.
Quote: Originally Posted by leto_cleon View Post
If I recall correctly, high stacking on defence rating lowered squishiness much more than stacking shield/absorb. The problem however was high defence was more spikey due to hits not hitting, and hitting. The low shield or low absorb meant low mitigation on the hits. Bad defence rolls and spike damage are more difficult to heal. To smoothen this out, points could be shifted from defence to shield/absorb (this was on my Guardian).

So just for illustration some pre-2.0 stats,

356 Def, 569 Sh, 410 Ab (0.2846 Squishiness, 0.22393 Sigma Squishiness)
On use Def Relic: 671 Def, 569 Sh, 410 Ab (0.26011 Squishiness, 0.22848 Sigma Squishiness)
But then how do we use spikiness with squishiness in order to maximize our overall tankyness? Is it worth increasing squishiness in order to decrease spikiness? I get what the stat does, I just don't know how to apply any value to it.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.20.2013 , 06:41 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Denchet View Post
But then how do we use spikiness with squishiness in order to maximize our overall tankyness? Is it worth increasing squishiness in order to decrease spikiness? I get what the stat does, I just don't know how to apply any value to it.
In general, you want to get spikiness below a certain threshold depending upon your healer's skill level and then optimize survivability while maintaining the threshold.
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leto_cleon
05.20.2013 , 07:24 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Denchet View Post
But then how do we use spikiness with squishiness in order to maximize our overall tankyness? Is it worth increasing squishiness in order to decrease spikiness? I get what the stat does, I just don't know how to apply any value to it.
LagunaD explained SigmaSquishiness and Spikiness as:

Quote:
"SigmaSquish" is the standard deviation of your squishiness on an attack-by-attack basis. Smaller values are better from the point of view of taking predictable damage. For a (hypothetical) pure-mitigation tank, SigmaSquish would reflect only the attacker's chance for critical hits.

A related value, called "Spikey-ness" is the ratio of SigmaSquish for your character in armor to a naked character with no avoidance or mitigation. This normalizes out the attacker's critical hits. For a pure mitigation tank, Spikey-ness would equal Squishiness. For a real tank, it will be higher. Smaller values are better.
Personally I used, Squishness/SigmaSquish to compare between different stats to see which was less squishy, and which had a smaller variance. So for example, when comparing the two Dread Guard Relics on a Guardian tank,

DG On Use Def Relic: 671 Def, 569 Sh, 410 Ab (0.26011 Squishiness, 0.22848 Sigma Squishiness)
DG On Use Sh/Ab Relic: 356 Def, 759 Sh, 600 Ab (0.26249 Squishiness, 0.22264 Sigma Squishiness)

-315 Def, +190 Sh, +190 Ab = -0.238% Squishinesss, +0.584% less variance (315 def vs 380 Sh/Ab)

Which is relic is better? Depends if you prefer to be less squishy or have lesser damage taken variance.

Denchet's Avatar


Denchet
05.20.2013 , 09:39 PM | #16
Alright, updated a bit.

Acc/Dmg debuffs have been removed from base stats and given their own separate cells. Should be pretty self explanatory, and there is a brief explanation in the spreadsheet.

Dmg debuff is now treated as a separate effect that multiplies boss damage by 0.95*, rather than just adding 0.05 to your damage reduction.

*Technically its multiplied by (1-DmgDebuff), which is (1-0.05)=0.95 by default.

Link to new version

Will update the OP tonight or tomorrow.

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
05.21.2013 , 10:06 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Denchet View Post
You could just equip your higher level armor and see if your damage taken % on the character sheet goes up or down when losing the 4-piece set bonus pretty easily for Shadow tanks. For VGs its a bit trickier, you would have to equip the higher level armors and see what your armor rating becomes. Then plug that into the spreadsheet while lowering base defense chance by 0.02, and see if that gives a lower DT than just using the old armorings with the 4-piece.
Rather than actually buying and ripping armorings from Verpine pieces, I have assumed that AskMrRobot has the right armor ratings. Using my AMR profile, I get:

4 x arkanian => 6222 armor, Damage Taken = 0.33859

I then saved that as another profile, and swapped the 4 Arkanian armorings for Force Wielder 31's.
Using that armor rating, I amended the spreadsheet constants: DR base reduced from 0.04 to 0.02, shield base reduced from .40 to .35.

swap to Verp => 6370 armor, Damage Taken = 0.35751

-- i.e. 1.892 percent more damage taken with the 4 Verpine armorings vs. 4 Arkanian. (28 more Endurance => roughly 290 more HP, and 28 more Willpower).

I haven't run the numbers on the other possible combinations (combinations of Campaign and Dread Guard armorings with various numbers of Arkanian and Underworld are all possible) but at least this proves to my own satisfaction that the DR gain outweighs the armor rating, willpower and HP loss

Denchet's Avatar


Denchet
05.21.2013 , 02:51 PM | #18
Updated OP with new version, as well as changes in the instructions due to the reworking of base stats.