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I hate Vengeance Juggernauts

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Trooper > Commando
I hate Vengeance Juggernauts

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.19.2013 , 11:17 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
kite them for the 4s, and then knockback/stun
The problem is that you can't kite them initially since in all probability you are rooted from the Vengeance Jugg Force Leap. And even when that root is off, you still can't kite them since they have Unstoppable and move as fast as you do. This is the problem with this subclass and to a lesser extent with Jugg tanks. The key strength of the Arsenal Merc is that he can very rapidly jujitsu an enemy melee that leaps to them by using RocketPunch/JetBoost combined with HO. However the Vengeance Jugg completely negates that tactic. You basically are going to eat 4 sec of their damage and if they follow up with Force Push, you can double that vulnerability window. In a 1v1 situation, I think your best bet is to pop your defensive cooldowns. The problem is that if you do this is a group fight, the Jugg will simply leap to a different target and you've wasted your defensive CDs.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
05.20.2013 , 12:28 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
i will use it in 1v1ish fights where someone just wont leave me alone. ive kited a warrior around for a solid 2 minutes before, all the while attacking his teammates. he never once thought to maybe attack the guy healing me. its like being a commando makes warriors/knights see red; they assume youre just an easy kill and will pursue it at the cost of all objectives.

the downside to this is that this is the same kind of player who will make it his sole mission in life to stalk you if you beat him 1v1. i hate those kind of players :|
Don't see a problem here. There would be a problem if you're melee (fewer options for tactical positioning in the fight), but as ranged, you can LoS ranged stalkers, position yourself to make it harder for melee stalkers (granted, good stealthers can be a pain, but if you play stealth yourself and know how they think, they're easier to deal with).

And there is, of course, the sweetest thing. You catch your stalker attacking someone else - you blow them up. The more they get worked up, the less they care about their own safety, the more tunnel-visioned they become, the more hilarious it gets.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Jenzali's Avatar


Jenzali
05.20.2013 , 12:32 AM | #13
It's extremely easy to avoid their leap + unstoppable + ravage combo with Hold the Line. The rest of their damage isn't anything to be afraid of and you can cleanse their DoTs - even Vicious Throw won't hit for as much as a Smash. Rage Juggs are much more difficult to kite around IMO, especially since they can use their short gap closer even with Electro Net on them.
Dashto Vant - Arsenal Mercenary - The most dashing bounty hunter in the galaxy.

akabane_k's Avatar


akabane_k
05.20.2013 , 12:33 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AGSThomas View Post
Dýomedes - Vengeance Juggernaut
wait what?

AGSThomas's Avatar


AGSThomas
05.20.2013 , 10:59 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by akabane_k View Post
wait what?
As the OP I left this game about 6 months ago. Sometime after Denova came out. I played a Vengeance/Immortal Jugg. When I came back, my guild was defunct and I made a Commando as my main.

A little update: Since the original post I've played around with using Hold the Line, Reactive Shield, and cleanse. I didn't know you could cleanse the dot. If I use all of them while kiting, I can do good damage while creating a bit of space. I've also realized that when they charge they have a triangular orange shield on them, that tells me its veng and not immortal. I still have 2 problems:

1. Doing damage on the run. As of right now I've been chucking my sticky grenade, explosive round and hammer shot. The problem is, this doesn't do great damage and I run out of energy cells.

2. Another problem, is after I hit hold the line to kite the first charge, I'd say 7 times out of 10 I get pushed and charge again. This I have no answer for because I am rooted. By the time the root is up I'm in between 25%-40% life depending. I've been trying to Shockstrike and kite but I get force screamed and saber thrown and that usually finishes me off.
Med´vh - Deception Assassin (PvP DPS)
D´omedes - Vengeance Juggernaut (PvP DPS)
Server: 5 Prophecies

Helig's Avatar


Helig
05.20.2013 , 12:06 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AGSThomas View Post
I still have 2 problems:

1. Doing damage on the run. As of right now I've been chucking my sticky grenade, explosive round and hammer shot. The problem is, this doesn't do great damage and I run out of energy cells.
Never ever use Explosive Round, unless you're interrupting objectives with its splash damage, or you have massive Ammo overflow. All the damage on the run you need is the Tech Override Grav=>Demo=>HiB=>TO Grav with procced full autos and stickies mixed in.
Quote:
2. Another problem, is after I hit hold the line to kite the first charge, I'd say 7 times out of 10 I get pushed and charge again. This I have no answer for because I am rooted. By the time the root is up I'm in between 25%-40% life depending. I've been trying to Shockstrike and kite but I get force screamed and saber thrown and that usually finishes me off.
You have Hold the Line. Use it to run out of Ravage range when you're charge-rooted. When he's Unstoppable and he uses the charge-push-charge combo you can tank it with your shield cooldown.

Fighting Warriors is about matching mechanic for mechanic, even if they don't counter eachother directly. You have the TO combo to do mobile damage which is very nice to use with hold the line and stockstrike root. You have a 4-sec hard stun. You have your shield cooldown (Stack with WZ adrenal+medpack for when you have no other choice but to eat massive damage). You have Electronet for when you know he has Charge ready. You have Concussive Round, which you can use on him with TO to wait out his Blade Ward, if the fight is not too thick - you can heal up, too. You have talented Diversion for eating an extra Shatter or Force Scream. You have (the sucky) Adrenaline Rush (that will not save you in execute range, but might buy you an extra shot).

He has his big 3-min Blade Ward cooldown. He has Reflect. He has Unstoppable=>Push=>Unstoppable combo, he has Endure Pain+Adrenal+Medpack for a final push, he has Enraged Defense for general-purpose mitigation, he has 10-meter choke (uses it either to interrupt you, or to wait out his big brust cooldowns), and he has an AoE mez (same purpose, but he can't really use it because of his DoTs, aside interrupting).

Just keep practicing. Play your Juggernaut, get the hang of its pacing and you'll be able to counter it. You don't have to use skills perfectly, or even reasonably well. You just use them and, with practise, they will click into place. Your fingers will remember the buttons, your brain will develop reflexes and stimulus responses. Keep practising and you'll be able to stand up to anybody.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

AGSThomas's Avatar


AGSThomas
05.20.2013 , 12:34 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Never ever use Explosive Round, unless you're interrupting objectives with its splash damage, or you have massive Ammo overflow. All the damage on the run you need is the Tech Override Grav=>Demo=>HiB=>TO Grav with procced full autos and stickies mixed in.

You have Hold the Line. Use it to run out of Ravage range when you're charge-rooted. When he's Unstoppable and he uses the charge-push-charge combo you can tank it with your shield cooldown.

Fighting Warriors is about matching mechanic for mechanic, even if they don't counter eachother directly. You have the TO combo to do mobile damage which is very nice to use with hold the line and stockstrike root. You have a 4-sec hard stun. You have your shield cooldown (Stack with WZ adrenal+medpack for when you have no other choice but to eat massive damage). You have Electronet for when you know he has Charge ready. You have Concussive Round, which you can use on him with TO to wait out his Blade Ward, if the fight is not too thick - you can heal up, too. You have talented Diversion for eating an extra Shatter or Force Scream. You have (the sucky) Adrenaline Rush (that will not save you in execute range, but might buy you an extra shot).

He has his big 3-min Blade Ward cooldown. He has Reflect. He has Unstoppable=>Push=>Unstoppable combo, he has Endure Pain+Adrenal+Medpack for a final push, he has Enraged Defense for general-purpose mitigation, he has 10-meter choke (uses it either to interrupt you, or to wait out his big brust cooldowns), and he has an AoE mez (same purpose, but he can't really use it because of his DoTs, aside interrupting).

Just keep practicing. Play your Juggernaut, get the hang of its pacing and you'll be able to counter it. You don't have to use skills perfectly, or even reasonably well. You just use them and, with practise, they will click into place. Your fingers will remember the buttons, your brain will develop reflexes and stimulus responses. Keep practising and you'll be able to stand up to anybody.
This was really informative, thank you. I'm also only level 40 so I don't have tech override or Electro net yet. Although I've leveled through Warzones so I know exactly what you are saying. Does blade ward have a visual cue like Unstoppable does?
Med´vh - Deception Assassin (PvP DPS)
D´omedes - Vengeance Juggernaut (PvP DPS)
Server: 5 Prophecies

Helig's Avatar


Helig
05.20.2013 , 01:13 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by AGSThomas View Post
This was really informative, thank you. I'm also only level 40 so I don't have tech override or Electro net yet. Although I've leveled through Warzones so I know exactly what you are saying. Does blade ward have a visual cue like Unstoppable does?
Yup. Blade Ward is a big transparent shimmering red "bubble" around the Warrior (blue for Knight). Also, the character does a fancy martial arts-like flourish when he activates that skill. You have a Juggernaut yourself, just use the skill and see what it looks like. You don't have to be in combat for that. Reflect is intense light red shimmer on the character model.

Go get'em, tiger
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Tarurelm's Avatar


Tarurelm
05.20.2013 , 01:53 PM | #19
Vigilance/vengeance is not the hard smashers, that's Focus/Rage specs. My smash as vigilance is around 4.5k, they crit around 7k
Delusions of Grandeur@ The Harbinger

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cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
05.20.2013 , 10:27 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
The problem is that you can't kite them initially since in all probability you are rooted from the Vengeance Jugg Force Leap. And even when that root is off, you still can't kite them since they have Unstoppable and move as fast as you do. This is the problem with this subclass and to a lesser extent with Jugg tanks. The key strength of the Arsenal Merc is that he can very rapidly jujitsu an enemy melee that leaps to them by using RocketPunch/JetBoost combined with HO. However the Vengeance Jugg completely negates that tactic. You basically are going to eat 4 sec of their damage and if they follow up with Force Push, you can double that vulnerability window. In a 1v1 situation, I think your best bet is to pop your defensive cooldowns. The problem is that if you do this is a group fight, the Jugg will simply leap to a different target and you've wasted your defensive CDs.
i use hold the line when a veng jugg charges at me. solves all those problems. wait 4s, then stock strike -> conc charge to create tons of distance and root.
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