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So.. Account Wide Datacrons

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NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
03.31.2014 , 01:17 PM | #721
Quote: Originally Posted by PetFish View Post
And a Datacron is like a stim, once you use it it's used, the rest of your Legacy doesn't get the benefit of the extra stat boost from the stim just like they should never get the stat boost from a Datacron unless they've activated it (ie. injected it) personally.
Not really. A stim is a consumable item created by crafters. Datacrons are not consumables, they are unlocks. The closest parallel in the game are the +crit, +surge, +acc, +end, and +healing received bonuses unlocked from companions. So I'll ask again, do you also object to those legacy wide buffs that already have much more of an impact than legacy datacrons could have?

TravelersWay's Avatar


TravelersWay
03.31.2014 , 03:12 PM | #722
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryric View Post
-"Datacrons are easy to get." Some of them are. Some are moderately difficult. Some are a freaking pain in the you-know-what. Those of us who want this perk want it for the tough ones, so this "counterargument" doesn't actually address the reason we ask for this is the first place. It's like saying "we shouldn't have speeders in orbital stations because you can use them in spaceports." No one is asking for this feature because they have trouble collecting the ones on Korriban.
Then instead of asking for a Legacy unlock, which would still require the platforming the first time around, why not ask for something like this:
Quote: Originally Posted by TravelersWay View Post
Well, there are other ways to go with that. Simply make some new Legacy abilities for each class that can be unlocked at any level that allow players to reach the 'crons without having to "platform." That way, it makes the few that are really PiA's no longer an issue, and still requires that each character to activate the 'cron.

The force using classes would get a "Force Jump," the Trooper/BH would get "Jet Pack," and the Smuggler/Agent would get "Grappling Hook." The use of these skills would be similar to the AOE abilities where you select a target on the ground for the effect to occur. Simply click the skill, click your target area, then the animation fires off and you are where you want to be, without having to be precise or using the space bar.
Problem solved on both ends, I think.

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC View Post
Right. So something in their game is buggy enough that it sometimes prevents people from jumping accurately and can reset them hundreds of meters... and they make something in their game require people to jump accurately... but wait, that was supposed to be a reward for exploration, not jumping!

Brilliant!
Exactly.
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Legacy Skills Suggestion to eliminate the need for Legacy Datacrons

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.31.2014 , 03:15 PM | #723
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
Not really. A stim is a consumable item created by crafters. Datacrons are not consumables, they are unlocks. The closest parallel in the game are the +crit, +surge, +acc, +end, and +healing received bonuses unlocked from companions. So I'll ask again, do you also object to those legacy wide buffs that already have much more of an impact than legacy datacrons could have?
See, I think this is an excellent point that is rarely addressed by Ratajack, PetFish and the few others and post heavily against the datacron unlock idea.

  1. I have yet to see any serious discussion of min-maxing a DPS toon that doesn't include the +crit / +surge /+acc companion bonuses. The fine line between +99.xx% accuracy with 4 slots vs +100.xx% accuracy with 5 can be hotly debated by theorycrafters, but ALL OF THEM will agree that the accuracy bonus from one's companion is vital.

  2. By comparison, I've yet to see even the most hardcore elitist raid group turn up their nose at someone without the datacron stat bonuses.

Unlocking the companion bonuses once automatically gives it for you on all toons. And provides a concrete, measurable stat benefit to one's ability to RAID as well as PVP. To the point where it is considered by many to practically be a requirement for any serious in 50+ activity.

I can understand the objections to the legacy datacron unlock. What I don't understand, is why there isn't vehement objections against the companion stat bonus unlock.

Gaining 9000+ affection on each toon to finish their quest lines requires effort. You either have to grind gift missions, buy gifts, run lots of Belsavis dailies, etc. In some cases (Ashara Zavros on a female SI) using gifts is monumentally inefficient, so your only choice is to grind a TON of conversation affection with her, or spend a veritable MINT on purple grade 5 gifts in the GTN.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar
Why are there no threads complaining about shared alt unlocks of stats that are of CONSIDERABLE benefit for each toon? Why isn't it considered lazy that you don't have to grid 9000+ affection on all 5 companions for each alt just to receive these bonuses?
There is a monumental double-standard here. Why are the companion bonus unlocks okay but the legacy datacrons aren't?

Let me try and forestall the response I expect to get from this:

RJ: "So you're saying that because companion bonuses are unlocked for everyone, datacrons should be as well."
KV: "I am NOT saying that at all. I am asking this question specifically: Why are you NOT objecting to companion stat bonuses applying to all toons at once?"

Arkerus's Avatar


Arkerus
03.31.2014 , 03:22 PM | #724
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
See, I think this is an excellent point that is rarely addressed by Ratajack, PetFish and the few others and post heavily against the datacron unlock idea.

  1. I have yet to see any serious discussion of min-maxing a DPS toon that doesn't include the +crit / +surge /+acc companion bonuses. The fine line between +99.xx% accuracy with 4 slots vs +100.xx% accuracy with 5 can be hotly debated by theorycrafters, but ALL OF THEM will agree that the accuracy bonus from one's companion is vital.

  2. By comparison, I've yet to see even the most hardcore elitist raid group turn up their nose at someone without the datacron stat bonuses.

Unlocking the companion bonuses once automatically gives it for you on all toons. And provides a concrete, measurable stat benefit to one's ability to RAID as well as PVP. To the point where it is considered by many to practically be a requirement for any serious in 50+ activity.

I can understand the objections to the legacy datacron unlock. What I don't understand, is why there isn't vehement objections against the companion stat bonus unlock.

Gaining 9000+ affection on each toon to finish their quest lines requires effort. You either have to grind gift missions, buy gifts, run lots of Belsavis dailies, etc. In some cases (Ashara Zavros on a female SI) using gifts is monumentally inefficient, so your only choice is to grind a TON of conversation affection with her, or spend a veritable MINT on purple grade 5 gifts in the GTN.



There is a monumental double-standard here. Why are the companion bonus unlocks okay but the legacy datacrons aren't?

Let me try and forestall the response I expect to get from this:

RJ: "So you're saying that because companion bonuses are unlocked for everyone, datacrons should be as well."
KV: "I am NOT saying that at all. I am asking this question specifically: Why are you NOT objecting to companion stat bonuses applying to all toons at once?"
You have some great questions and the vocal minority will simply mask it as laziness. The reality is THEY did it and don't want their time devalued.

That's it. It's the exact same situation with shared bonuses from buffs.

Its just someone clinging to bad design because they went out and did it.
Hooning in the rex : http://youtu.be/xtXUM6yPMCY

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.31.2014 , 03:34 PM | #725
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
See, I think this is an excellent point that is rarely addressed by Ratajack, PetFish and the few others and post heavily against the datacron unlock idea.

  1. I have yet to see any serious discussion of min-maxing a DPS toon that doesn't include the +crit / +surge /+acc companion bonuses. The fine line between +99.xx% accuracy with 4 slots vs +100.xx% accuracy with 5 can be hotly debated by theorycrafters, but ALL OF THEM will agree that the accuracy bonus from one's companion is vital.

  2. By comparison, I've yet to see even the most hardcore elitist raid group turn up their nose at someone without the datacron stat bonuses.

Unlocking the companion bonuses once automatically gives it for you on all toons. And provides a concrete, measurable stat benefit to one's ability to RAID as well as PVP. To the point where it is considered by many to practically be a requirement for any serious in 50+ activity.

I can understand the objections to the legacy datacron unlock. What I don't understand, is why there isn't vehement objections against the companion stat bonus unlock.

Gaining 9000+ affection on each toon to finish their quest lines requires effort. You either have to grind gift missions, buy gifts, run lots of Belsavis dailies, etc. In some cases (Ashara Zavros on a female SI) using gifts is monumentally inefficient, so your only choice is to grind a TON of conversation affection with her, or spend a veritable MINT on purple grade 5 gifts in the GTN.



There is a monumental double-standard here. Why are the companion bonus unlocks okay but the legacy datacrons aren't?

Let me try and forestall the response I expect to get from this:

RJ: "So you're saying that because companion bonuses are unlocked for everyone, datacrons should be as well."
KV: "I am NOT saying that at all. I am asking this question specifically: Why are you NOT objecting to companion stat bonuses applying to all toons at once?"
Would I object if the devs chose to remove those "affection" legacy perks? No, I would not. Would I argue to add those perks if the devs had not instituted them from the start? No, I would not.

If they even mentioned the possibility of removing those perks, however, I'm sure these forums would erupt with people clamoring not to change the rules of the game. I'm simply asking the devs NOT to change the rules regarding a totally OPTIONAL part of the game.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.31.2014 , 03:52 PM | #726
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkerus View Post
You have some great questions and the vocal minority will simply mask it as laziness. The reality is THEY did it and don't want their time devalued.

That's it. It's the exact same situation with shared bonuses from buffs.

Its just someone clinging to bad design because they went out and did it.
Yes, you can get stat bonuses from affection. Does he existence of those bonuses justify handing out PERMANENT datacron stat bonuses to characters that have no found the datacrons? IMO, it does not. You obviously feel it does, since you want those stat bonuses, but don't want to actually earn them on every character.

We have the existence of a single instance in which a stat increase earned by ONE character actually provides a benefit that affects the character, and not companions. Since you seem to think that one instance is enough to justify handing out rewards earned by ONE character to every character, past and present, then it should also justify having all rewards earned by one character duplicated and handed to every character. Fair is fair, after all, right?

Would you object to each and every character a player has getting an equivalent piece of class appropriate gear every time ONE character gets one? After all, that player already p[roved he could do it and he already did it once. Why make him go through all that effort on each of his characters?

Why make each and every character earn the XP required to level? Why not give each and every character an equal amount of XP each time ONE character earns any XP. After all, they already earned it once. Why make them go through all that tedium over and over again on each character?

Why not give each character the FULL AMOUNT of credits that only ONE character earns? After all, they already earned them once. Why make them go through all that tedium over and over on every character?



If there was a way to transfer the stat bonuses from one character to another, so that only ONE character had them at any given time, I would back that 100%. This would be the same as using a set of legacy gear to transfer a single set of mods between characters. That is not possible, however, as the game currently stands. What is being asked is that BW DUPLICATE and give to each and every character something only earned by ONE character.

This is the same concept as giving each and every character the full amount of credits any time ONE character earns any, giving each and every character an equivalent piece of class appropriate gear any time ONE character receives a piece of gear or giving each and every character the full amount of XP earned by ONE character any time ONE character earns any XP.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.31.2014 , 04:10 PM | #727
Quote: Originally Posted by PifferPuff View Post

This is a video game, right? It is - by virtue - a "lazy" endeavor, in and of itself. It is not an employment activity. It is NOT "work;" ergo, you should not treat it as such, nor would you then have to pay for it. But, we DO pay to enjoy this game to its fullest; because, it is fun, enjoyable, and something that we can spend our leisure time in pursuing the myriad of adventures therein.

I will spell this out for you ('cuz I seriously don't think you understand the concept of "work"): This is not work; it is not an employment activity; not a means to survive, nor a means to etch out personal leisure time. It is a game. It is for fun. This game is, however, an investment of personal leisure time, where time is variable: some have more than others, and many engage in employment activities to support their leisure activities, and afford the scarce resource known as "time" to purchase such activities.

The debate at hand should not be simply eroded to the pejorative of "lazy," but in maximizing what little leisure time we (as individuals) have to invest on the activities in this game. As I have made mention to prior, I am on the fence - as some datacrons I would still enjoy finding for each character I play, and some I would rather pretend do not exist. However, if, for example, I level up a 55, and discover that the AC I rolled is in demand for a guilded HM DF/DP progression, or Dweadtoof and secret boss raiding, I would rejoice at the option to buy a legacy perk to unlock all datacrons for that toon. The stats may only be marginally significant, but in HM/NiM progression raiding, every little bit helps (to widen a deathly slim margin of error, or give that one-off chance for a lucky roll that may mean the difference between clearing and wiping).

For your edification, I would advise you to read up on Keynesian economics, to elevate your understanding of what motivates the working class to work (esp. employment activities vs leisure activities). Because, quite frankly, equating an activity in this (or any) game as "work" frightens me as to what your work ethics are, and makes it seem like your office is in your mom's basement, your coffee shop is on the Fleet, and any in-game destination you can travel to is your jobsite. It induces me believe that your leisure time amounts to 99% of your total time and 0-1% allocated to employment activities (bio breaks and the like). Therefore, your association of the term "work" then seems ill placed and confused. By-the-by, you're this guy, right? For realsies, right? LOL
You're very good about making assumptions.

To set the record straight, I work 50+ hours a week, bowl at least three nights a week, have a family and all the time consuming obligations that go with having that family. If I get 3-4 hours a week to play, I consider myself lucky. Each and every time I get to log in, I have to choose how to spend the limited time I have. Do I do dailies for credits? Do I run a HM FP or two for comms? Do I find a few datacrons for those bonuses? I recognize that not every part of this game is all fun and excitement. Some parts of it are time sinks and grinds.

Unlike some , however, I do not come to the forums begging the devs to change the game so that I only have to do something ONE time to have all of my characters reap the rewards for that activity.



Quote: Originally Posted by PifferPuff View Post
RIght... I can put my BiS Willpower 78s in my Red Scalene armor and transfer it to my Heal sage, my DPS Sin, or my DPS sorc: the itemization is pretty much the same (less the set bonuses), and I can get 3 or more toons to build up that set and use it each time that I want. Making earning set bonuses for each later on that much quicker. Even though I transferred the entire gear set to each toon that I raid with, I only had to earn the mods ONCE! Wowzas... Since I can only play one toon at a time, and then - therefore - only need to have one set of transferable gear, can that then be interpreted as a duplication of stats? The very thing you seem to be opposed to is already in game? ...And your point was?.... (nvm - I don't want to see more repetition. I can just scroll up and revisit your circular arguments at my leisure)
Yes, you can send that set of mods between characters. You only have ONE set of mods to transfer. You do NOT get a set of mods for each and every character simply because you obtained ONE set. If there were a way to transfer a single set of datacron stat bonuses between characters, your analogy would be appropriate, but there is not. A single set of mods is NOT the same thing as INFINITE sets of datacrons stat bonuses.

I would support something such as the holoviewer suggested by a previous poster that would enable the transfer of those datacron stat bonuses.

That is not what is being asked of the devs, however. What is being asked of the devs is that they hand out potentially INFINITE number of sets of datacron stat bonuses simply because ONE character earned them.

Quote: Originally Posted by PifferPuff View Post
It's called a "main." I do almost all of my dailies on it and spread the rewards out to my alts.


You can dole out those credits earned by your main, but like those mods, there is only ONE set of credits to distribute. If your main earns 500k credits doing dailies today, you can distribute those credits any way you choose. If your main earns 500k credits today, the rest of your characters don't automatically get 500K credits just because your main earned them.



I'm sure that you'll just dismiss this again because it doesn't mesh with your desire to be handed datacron stat bonuses on characters that did not find those datacrons.

ReverendAnderson's Avatar


ReverendAnderson
03.31.2014 , 04:11 PM | #728
I'd like legacy datacrons. Make a legacy perk or something. Like put datacrons on their own list, each entry fills in if you find the datacron but is grayed out or something if you didn't find it with your current character. Buy a legacy perk for credits/coins and all the datacrons you've found or will find with any character on that legacy have their boosts applied to the character that bought the perk.

Hell, maybe even start adding new datacrons (or other collectibles) that give you boosts beyond stats too. Come up with a whole collectibles system that incorporates seeker droid stuff, macrobinocular stuff, datacrons and who knows what else. Make it a legacy wide thing. It could be part of Collections.

I have no idea if this idea is in any way viable from a design standpoint, but it sure would be nice to have.
"That's two sound theories in one day, neither of which deal with abnormally sized men."

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.31.2014 , 04:16 PM | #729
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Would I object if the devs chose to remove those "affection" legacy perks? No, I would not. Would I argue to add those perks if the devs had not instituted them from the start? No, I would not.

If they even mentioned the possibility of removing those perks, however, I'm sure these forums would erupt with people clamoring not to change the rules of the game. I'm simply asking the devs NOT to change the rules regarding a totally OPTIONAL part of the game.
This is a fair statement.

And it is true, the rules of the game are what they are. Changing the way legacy datacrons affect alts would in fact be changing the rules.

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
03.31.2014 , 05:22 PM | #730
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
This is a fair statement.

And it is true, the rules of the game are what they are. Changing the way legacy datacrons affect alts would in fact be changing the rules.
except... there's a difference between "removing" a perk. and "adding" one.

both are changes, but only one of them is a negative one.

furthermore.

rules are changing constantly. we use to get our first mount at lvl 25 and didn't get sprint until lvl 16. we didn't have legacy armor or even adoptive armor (that's a big one - it used to be a major pain and/or expense, trying to get moddable belts and wrists that weren't light armor) vast majority of legacy perks didn't exist. at all. hell, lvl 10 crystals with lvl 50 stats are a rule changer. collections is a big one, ability to just replicate sets of armor or crystals endlessly on ALL your characters (its not even legacy wide - its account wide) after unlocking them once. that's a big deal.

changing the game to provide better quality of life for its players? is a good rule change.