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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

dcgregorya's Avatar


dcgregorya
05.28.2013 , 03:13 PM | #301
Quote: Originally Posted by JouerTue View Post

if 2 dps focus a healer he's dead.
As a scoundrel healer it's trivially easy to avoid dying to 2 DPS. Requires 3+ to kill me in general if there are no other healers at all in the match. Need to learn your class better hombre.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 03:17 PM | #302
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
I actually almost never use pre-mades. For the time being, I am in a PVE guild (no one else even has a full set of partisan let alone conqueror). I play against pub/imp premades. Sometimes my pug wins, sometimes my pug loses. Yesterday I was in a zone where the highest hps on my team were 25k, I currently have 30k as a sorc. It didnt matter that I was the top healer in the zone, it didnt matter that the other team had no healers, my team simply could do nothing to them.

And from my perspective, the team with the best dps is more likely to win than the team with the best healer.

If you have 6 dps that are better than my 6 dps, it likely wont matter if my 2 healers are better than your 2 healers. The reason is, you are outputting way more damage way quicker, so your healers (even though they are worse) can keep up with bad dps, where even the best healer cant outpace focused top end dps.

If anything good dps + good gear, is really the ticket to winning. But many dps are not running full expertise and then wondering why they cant kill the healer who has more hp and more expertise.
Heals are very overpowered right now that it's not just premades running a lot of healers, though obviously premades tend to be the biggest culprits. 1 healer is fine. 2 healers is boderline manageable. Anything more than that you're getting into the staring contest range. Even with 2 healers a lot of fights are going to come down to the fact that you team killed their healer twice instead of just once for your healer and no one class should have this much impact. Of course it does boil down to DPS, especially since healing is now super easy for non Commandos that even bad players can do it fairly well. But it'd usually boild own to ways that have nothing to do with killing the opposition, and a WZ where the node never flipped control is just not very exciting. But people have to die first for things like that to happen.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 03:31 PM | #303
Quote: Originally Posted by dcgregorya View Post
You're not supposed to be energy neutral while eating focus fire - though the self heal and bubble HoT helps. Don't neglect polarity shift and overload either. If you're not taking the instant AOE heal on overload and spamming it you're doing it wrong - it's very good. You're going to keep innervate on cooldown even if people go to interrupt it because you're probably going to get at least 2 ticks and right after that you're going to follow it with resurgence into dark heal. You can use resurgence into innervate if you're not being focused but I think people don't realize that when you are being focused you want to use resurgence on dark heal for burst healing.

This is why sorcs benefit inordinately from having a second healer. They can go invincible and get healed to full, even while stunned, sit in their cuddle puddle with HoTs on them from an operative and consume themselves to regain mana, and when needed pop polarity shift for the anti-interrupt effect - particularly if their resolve bar is maxed.
Overload you have to use sparingly as it may be the difference between stopping a cap and not. I cant tell you how many times voidstar/civil war my overload stopped the cap. In pve overload is a great trick for getting health back while using consume. Basically consume down, shield, self heal, overload and you are back at full health full energy.

But if im being focused, if Im kiting, of course I through overload in (it crits at about 3k), but in terms of healing my team, it gives 1 burst then on cd, which is why generally I save it for 1) when im focused or 2) when someone is capping.

And yeah of all the healers sorc is the one who likely benefits most from a 2nd healer.

Paulman's Avatar


Paulman
05.28.2013 , 03:37 PM | #304
[QUOTE=Astarica;6364943]Um, Healing Trance ticks extremely fast. You'll probably get half of the heals off before you can interupt it, and then you also don't have an interrupt to deal with anything else they might cast, and Healing Trance has a very low CD. Deliverance is still a more powerful heal if you get to free cast it. It's just that there's currrently no real need to even cast that between all the other uninterruptible/hard to interrupt heals, because it's risky to cast a Deliverance and have it interrupted at the last 0.1s when you can just spam 4 different fast/instant heals.[QUOTE]
So be fast that is where skill comes in. Healing trance has increased crit if they are using it as they should be plus it allows them to use stacks to get back force or drop instant puddles. If you eliminate healing trance they will be both putting out less heals and running our of force more quickly.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 03:42 PM | #305
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Heals are very overpowered right now that it's not just premades running a lot of healers, though obviously premades tend to be the biggest culprits. 1 healer is fine. 2 healers is boderline manageable. Anything more than that you're getting into the staring contest range. Even with 2 healers a lot of fights are going to come down to the fact that you team killed their healer twice instead of just once for your healer and no one class should have this much impact. Of course it does boil down to DPS, especially since healing is now super easy for non Commandos that even bad players can do it fairly well. But it'd usually boild own to ways that have nothing to do with killing the opposition, and a WZ where the node never flipped control is just not very exciting. But people have to die first for things like that to happen.
I just cant agree with this. The best groups will change one of their healers to dps, 3 healers is redundant unless you already have a defensive position/lead.

Its almost like you are unhappy with the role of healers in online games...

There is a reason why healers are "marked" to start, because as soon as the healer goes down you can mow through the other team. There is a reason why the tank guards the healer. There is a reason why in this game there is 1 healer to 3 other classes. The importance of the healer is hard coded into this game, you either accept that or you dont. But there is no way you can make a healer = to a dps, without completely changing the entire structure of this game.

And the reason no one is flipping a node is because both sides are foolishly playing for a stalemate. If your team has the tick, fine play deny mid. But if your team is a tick down, you should really try and grab another node, hope for an overreact (or not) and try and win the game.

Id have no problem with a que that allows for selection of healer and tries to even it out.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 05:27 PM | #306
Due to the general cowardice of the community there's no way you'd get a case where people respeced healer to a DPS. 1 healer, 1 tank, and 6 DPS might indeed be the best team to use right now against heavy heals because it's hard to see 4 DPS overpowering even 1 healer + 1 tank if your DPS is at all good at denial. But you won't see a team like that because people are afraid to try new things. It's not hard to see that if 1 healer can trivially outheal the DPS of 1 DPS then stacking up more healers is even more favorable against DPS and quickly gets you to the point where you can't die, and if you can't die you usually won't lose. This doesn't address the fact that just because you can't lose doesn't mean you've a way to actually win, but most premade's understanding of the game involves just stacking overpowered classes, so if that's all you know, starting with 'can't lose' sure looks pretty good.

Stopping healing trance was always extremely hard, because it's meant to be that way. If you can stop healing trance with any kind of reliability, there would be no point to play a Sorc pre 2.0. So no 'stop healing trance' isn't something the DPS can do. If they can do that you might as well eliminate Sorc as a healer, as they'd be dead 100% of the time. It's the fact that healing trance usually slips through against even the best DPS is why Sorc healing was even viable prior to 2.0. Now with changes like faster salvation and polarity shift the balance may be too much in the other way, but you never truly stopped healing trance.

By the way, the game has never been 1 healer > 1 DPS. 1 great DPS > 1 great healer unless it was an Operative pre 2.0, to the point where playing non Operative healer is a significant liability. You pretty much need taunt and guard to break even against 2 DPS, and of course by then you get into the team game which is fair.

Paulman's Avatar


Paulman
05.28.2013 , 06:44 PM | #307
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Due to the general cowardice of the community there's no way you'd get a case where people respeced healer to a DPS. 1 healer, 1 tank, and 6 DPS might indeed be the best team to use right now against heavy heals because it's hard to see 4 DPS overpowering even 1 healer + 1 tank if your DPS is at all good at denial. But you won't see a team like that because people are afraid to try new things. It's not hard to see that if 1 healer can trivially outheal the DPS of 1 DPS then stacking up more healers is even more favorable against DPS and quickly gets you to the point where you can't die, and if you can't die you usually won't lose. This doesn't address the fact that just because you can't lose doesn't mean you've a way to actually win, but most premade's understanding of the game involves just stacking overpowered classes, so if that's all you know, starting with 'can't lose' sure looks pretty good.

Stopping healing trance was always extremely hard, because it's meant to be that way. If you can stop healing trance with any kind of reliability, there would be no point to play a Sorc pre 2.0. So no 'stop healing trance' isn't something the DPS can do. If they can do that you might as well eliminate Sorc as a healer, as they'd be dead 100% of the time. It's the fact that healing trance usually slips through against even the best DPS is why Sorc healing was even viable prior to 2.0. Now with changes like faster salvation and polarity shift the balance may be too much in the other way, but you never truly stopped healing trance.

By the way, the game has never been 1 healer > 1 DPS. 1 great DPS > 1 great healer unless it was an Operative pre 2.0, to the point where playing non Operative healer is a significant liability. You pretty much need taunt and guard to break even against 2 DPS, and of course by then you get into the team game which is fair.
See a bar POP up and press a button. I don't see what's so hard about that. When I play a dps I don't really have an issue with healers so much. It's just a matter of working with your team.

UrbanSaint's Avatar


UrbanSaint
05.30.2013 , 07:54 PM | #308
If you solo queue its really just luck of the draw. every once in a while i get a team with no healers and the other team has 2, but we still manage to win because our teams dps/cc was enough to overwhelm them. it is obviously very tough but you can win a warzone without healers even if the other team does have healers.
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