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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

Volxen's Avatar


Volxen
05.15.2013 , 02:53 PM | #21
Lol, these threads are always so entertaining. 90% of people playing Derps Per Second don't know about focus fire and coordination, and the result is always threads like this one.

Skyhigh's Avatar


Skyhigh
05.15.2013 , 02:55 PM | #22
Overpowered heals? lol....The heals are what help fights last longer and make PvP more fun and less of a retarded zerg carnival. Learn to play or leave. No one cares that you can't come in with your RP Jedi and 1 hit kill a group of people.

Ashuranrx's Avatar


Ashuranrx
05.15.2013 , 02:57 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by MajinUltima View Post
I'm fine with a freecasting healer doing more healing than players do damage. I'm not fine with a fleeing healer being attacked being able to outheal though, that IS imbalanced.
Maybe because I mainly play a Combat Sentinel and use Transcendance only in PvP, I find no problem sticking to any healers, nor does any of my teammates for that matter. I usually team up with my Scrapper Scoundrel friend in WZ. We mark healers with icons, and just focus the hell out of them, and they drop like flies. Even with multiple healers and tanks on the other team, and with no healer on my team. We have no problem dropping healers, we just do hard switch focus. This is just me and my friend, not a full premade.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.15.2013 , 02:58 PM | #24
Typical troll bait responses. "You suck!" "Learn to play!" Sorry pals, objective data is worth more than your silly little trolling taunts.

Volxen's Avatar


Volxen
05.15.2013 , 02:59 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Overpowered heals? lol....The heals are what help fights last longer and make PvP more fun and less of a retarded zerg carnival. Learn to play or leave. No one cares that you can't come in with your RP Jedi and 1 hit kill a group of people.
Lol, yep. That's exactly what all of these threads boil down to.

Seriously, I think a lot of the DPSers who start threads like these should look into Call of Duty. There are no healers in that game and you can mindlessly DPS/zerg all day every day.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.15.2013 , 03:01 PM | #26
For some reason people think healing is supposed to be hard in this game and always have the excuse 'but it is hard'. It's getting to a point where even a bad healer is pretty hard to kill let alone a good one that's properly supported. I really can't imagine even a healer would support this, because this thing goes both ways and when both sides have even halfway decent healers you get games where nobody ever died and those games tend to last forever and is rather boring. I had a game of Huttball where we grabbed the ball 6 times from middle versus twice from the other team. And guess what the final score was: 6-2. It's pretty funny that after 2-2 both teams realized the ball carrier was never going to die so whenever someone grabbed the ball the other team just head back to mid, and the attacking team only has the ball carrier moving forward so there's 15 people in middle while the ball carrier leisurely strolls to goal for the last 4 goals we scored, because both teams know if we sent anyone after the ball carrier it's just a waste of time.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.15.2013 , 03:06 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Ashuranrx View Post
Maybe because I mainly play a Combat Sentinel and use Transcendance only in PvP, I find no problem sticking to any healers, nor does any of my teammates for that matter. I usually team up with my Scrapper Scoundrel friend in WZ. We mark healers with icons, and just focus the hell out of them, and they drop like flies. Even with multiple healers and tanks on the other team, and with no healer on my team. We have no problem dropping healers, we just do hard switch focus. This is just me and my friend, not a full premade.
Their playing badly doesn't mean balance. They're clearly not effectively using taunts, immoblizes, CC, etc to stop you from double-teaming someone, and they may not even be paying attention to the fact that you are doing so. You only get 1 CC break. I've killed plenty of healers on plenty of classes, someone playing badly or getting ganked is NOT an example of mathematical balance.

On my Sentinel I constantly run around butchering people 1v2, the fact that they play badly doesn't mean this is an example of Sentinel being the most powerful class ever. Too many people see emprical data of players playing badly and assume it means things are a-okay. Facts are facts, healing output FAR outstrips damage output by an unreasonable margin. Again, examples of someone else playing badly doesn't mean healing is balanced when it mathematically is not.

Lunez's Avatar


Lunez
05.15.2013 , 03:14 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by MajinUltima View Post
1. mathematically
You've used the phrase mathematically quite a bit in your response, which suggested you know the math. Please relate to all of us the formulas you're using because I am quite skeptical you are using math, but instead, a large amount of conjecture. You conject many statements to support your idea but it just doesn't hold water.

I'm not saying you're crazy, I just need more evidence to support your hypothesis, you need to explain what sort of math you're using here, because everything that I do on a regular basis while playing the game suggests otherwise. I'm revamping my guide to make it up to date and current with recent new pathces and new pvp system so if you can give me a reasonable argument to support your formulas, I will dedicate an entire chapter to your thesis.

The sort of evidence I want to see that supports your argument is much like the following:

Critical Chance - Changed in 2.0
Base Crit%: 5%
Crit Rating Contribution: 30% * (1 - (1- (0.01/0.3))^(Rating/55/0.9))
Primary (& Secondary where appropriate) Stat Contribution: 20% * (1 - (1- (0.01/0.2))^(Rating/55/5.5))

Surge - Changed in 2.0
Base Surge%: 50%
Surge Rating: 30% * (1 - (1- (0.01/0.3))^(Rating/55/0.22))

Accuracy - Changed in 2.0
Base Main Hand Basic Accuracy%: 90%
Base Off Hand Basic Accuracy%: 57%
Base Special & Force Main Hand Accuracy%: 100%
Base Special Off Hand Accuracy%: 67%
Accuracy Rating: 30% * (1 - (1- (0.01/0.3))^(Rating/55/1.2))

Defense - Changed in 2.0
Base Defense%: 5%
Defense Rating: 30% * (1 - (1- (0.01/0.3))^(Rating/55/1.2))

Absorb - Changed in 2.0
Base Defense%: 20%
Defense Rating: 50% * (1 - (1- (0.01/0.5))^(Rating/55/0.65))

Shield - Changed in 2.0
Shield Rating: 50%*(1 - (1 - (0.01/0.3))^(Rating/55/0.78))

Alacrity - Changed in 2.0
Alacrity Rating: 30%*(1 - (1 - (0.01/0.3))^(Rating/55/1.25))

Bonus Damage - Not changed in 2.0
Primary (& Secondary where appropriate) Stat Contribution: 0.20 * Rating
Power Stat Contribution: 0.23 * Rating

Bonus Healing - Not changed in 2.0
Primary (& Secondary where appropriate) Stat Contribution: 0.14 * Rating
Power Stat Contribution: 0.17 * Rating

Skill-Creep Graph

Understanding Exponential Formulas
Many of the formulas used in SWTOR provide diminishing marginal returns, which means each incremental point provides less value than the previous point invested. This is popularly known as diminishing returns or DR.

To start though every one of these has a base value, which is clearly listed on your character sheet. I have also listed these below:
Crit % = 0.05 or 5%
Surge % = 0.5 or 50%
Basic Main Hand Accuracy % = 0.9 or 90%
Basic Off Hand Accuracy % = 0.57 or 57%
Special & Force/Tech Main Hand Accuracy % = 1.0 or 100%
Special & Force/Tech Main Hand Accuracy % = 0.67 or 67%
Defense = 0.05 or 5%
Shield = 0.05 or 5% *
Absorb = 0.2 or 20% *

*Technically, the Shield & Absorb percents are only available when you equip a shield.

In addition to the base amount there is a variable amount based on the particular rating of the stat. This variable amount is specifically a hard cap or asymptote that is then multiplied by a coefficient. By design these coefficients are less than 1, which is why we can never reach the hard cap. Given this, I will now refer to these as asymptotes. These coefficients are reduced via ever decreasing exponents. Now in 2.0, there is an added mechanism to further decrease these exponents, which makes it even harder to hit the stats you want.

The formulas are broadly:

Base % + Asymptote % * Coefficient

Critical chance is impacted by Primary (& possibly Secondary) Stat as well as Crit Rating so it has an additional Asymptote * Coffefient element.

The actual coefficient equation is this:

Coefficient Equation

For more detailed information on the math behind the mechanic, check out posts like the following (from which I borrowed the above info from)

SW:TOR Mechanics, 2.0 Formula Mechanics

Ashuranrx's Avatar


Ashuranrx
05.15.2013 , 03:16 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by MajinUltima View Post
Facts are facts, healing output FAR outstrips damage output by an unreasonable margin. Again, examples of someone else playing badly doesn't mean healing is balanced when it mathematically is not.
Ok we talk math then, since you are into it. In every lost game I had, I found that my team's total damage, protection, and healing all added together is less than the opposing team's total damage, protecton, and healing all added together. And when I won, I found that my team's total summation points is greater than the lost team.

What does this tell me? Winning team always outperforms the losing team, with healing or not.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.15.2013 , 03:25 PM | #30
The talk about math reminds me of the attempts to analyze basketball when you have the final score, which is a 100% indiicator of which team was better over any other factor. You can try to break down the math, but you alrady have leaderboard numbers and the result of the WZ. Invariably you'll see the best healer comfortably outheal the best DPS if you play enough games. Even if you're trying to pad damage, if you can pad 2 million damage, then an equally good healer can heal 2.5 million in the same game. Sometimes you'll even see this from both sides (team A's healer outperformed team B's DPS and vice versa). The DPS are not capable of simply 'doing more damage', yet the healers often are capable of healing even more. From a raw number point of view, HPS simply exceeds DPS by an incredible margin. A lot of people are talking these fantasy scenario where a top healer healed for 2000 HPS while a comparable DPS did 1000 DPS and yet you can somehow 'keep that guy occupied' when you do half the DPS of what he can comfortably heal.

There are a lot of games I know where I'm in no postion to threaten the healer but you have to do it because if you ignore him it's going to be even worse. Most healers are still bad enough that you can eventually kill them but it's hard to kill even 3 bad healers healing each other. Again I really have no idea what the motivation to hide this stuff is, because even if you're a heal heavy group you should have noticed that even PUGs are running 3 healers now and 20+ minute marathon matches are becoming the norm, and that sucks for everyone.