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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
05.18.2013 , 03:10 PM | #221
Assuming that the healer has no help from his team mates it will still take atleast (depending on combo) two competent damage dealers to stop him from doing his main task, healing team mates. Even in this position he will be able to heal himself and probably get away, all while occupying two enemies and thereby potentially playing a key role. So yeah, healing for atleast sages/sorcs and foremost scoundrels/operatives is over the top. I can't speak for commando/merc.
Now add to the equation that pug players are usually uncoordinated and plain stupid. The times a healer will have two dedciated damage dealers on him at all times are few and far apart, which makes the job even easier.

I'd say that 9 out of ten deaths for me as a sage healer is because I've had someone on me for so long that I'm running out of force and basically take the death in a way to replenish mana. During that time I've managed to both heal myself and throw bubbles and aoe's around me. I'm rarely dying because people burn me down in a focused effort.

As for the stupid healer vs dps scenario that people like to bring up, the dps won't win. I'm rarely finding myself in "pure" 1 vs 1 scenarios but when I do and if I choose to fight back I'm probably going to come out of it with full health. Another option is to not fight back and just waste their time by healing myself. It's situational but it will take a really talented DD on a good class to even have a remote chance. As DPS speced I'd lose many of those battles.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.18.2013 , 03:27 PM | #222
Quote:
This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.
It's an exponential effect. If 1 competent dps isn't going to be reasonably able to kill 1 competent healer, then what happens when a 2nd dps and a tank or 2nd healer get involved? How do you capture a node within a reasonable timeframe when you cannot send an equal number of players and reasonably expect even a possibility success?

Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo. You SHOULD be playing your healer as a team player, not sitting on a node cuz "lol can't die 1v1 for a good minute or so". Healers feel entitled to be good in every capacity, in a team, in a duo, solo, etc. And this is the result.
Quote:
This leads to warped outcomes where one side and sometime both sides have single digit total deaths and the outcome is often determined by who can click on an objective faster.
That's not the only point but is a relevant one, and at least one of the central thrusts of my initial post. There are a lot of points about the negative impact healers being overpowered is having on the game.

I love Huttball but even a lot of my Huttball matches have degenerated down to "Who can dodge the endgame timer in a 0-0?" and that's no good. No one even runs the ball because it involves leaving the healers who are in mid, and thus you die, so there's no offense going on.

I've also heard the opposite, the healers are on offense so much that no one plays defense and the game is who can click the ball respawn the fastest because scoring becomes a given. Either scenario is a pretty degenerate collapse of warzone mechanics. As stated before, ACW boils down to who clicked their side turret first and got up 10-0, because no one's going to die at mid or on the sides. If they do, then one team auto-wins because you'll never recap the objectives in time to turn it around.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
05.18.2013 , 04:00 PM | #223
Quote: Originally Posted by MajinUltima View Post

Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo. You SHOULD be playing your healer as a team player, not sitting on a node cuz "lol can't die 1v1 for a good minute or so". Healers feel entitled to be good in every capacity, in a team, in a duo, solo, etc. And this is the result.
While I don't agree that healers are all out OP, I can see more clearly your point about them being a viable 1v1 role. Reducing the magnitude of their self heals, or removing the ability to use some of the heals on themselves seems like it could bring about a solution to that issue.

I can't Guardian Leap to myself to reduce my damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds, and after reading your posts and playing heals to gather more knowledge of the situation, I can safely say that losing the effectiveness of self-heals would mean that I would have to depend on my teammates in the same way that other roles depend on the healer.

Powercow's Avatar


Powercow
05.18.2013 , 04:03 PM | #224
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
'we had 3 guys capping the door from starting of the match and eventually one of them succeeded'. Games like that are becoming increasing common and I can't imagine them being very fun for anybody involved.
Wow, that other team sounds terrible if that was your strategy and it worked.

I've also fought really dumb teams before, it doesn't mean healing is overpowered. In fact that seems completely irrelevant to the power of healing.

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
05.18.2013 , 04:12 PM | #225
[QUOTE=MajinUltima;6321394]Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo. /QUOTE]

Says you. So you get to decide which class is a "team role"? Aren't they all? Do you do flashpoints or ranked without a tank or dps?
And how does it follow that if a class fills a team role they "should" be bad solo? Since all classes fill a team role wouldn't that mean they should all be bad? Or just the ones you choose, eh?

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.18.2013 , 04:18 PM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by Powercow View Post
Wow, that other team sounds terrible if that was your strategy and it worked.

I've also fought really dumb teams before, it doesn't mean healing is overpowered. In fact that seems completely irrelevant to the power of healing.
Sounds like you've never fought a strong defensive team in Voidstar. Taking the door by force is completely out of the question. Our team did the best strat they can because due to tab targetting being very unreliable in this game, doing this, combined with some CC, is the only chance to break through a defended door in Voidstar. If you can't kill defenders, there isn't even a point to try to DPS and you might as well chain click on the door as there's at least some small chance that will work. This is also the optimal strategy in Novare Coast against heal strong teams (chain clicking the node). In a game where both teams knows how the meta game goes, you'll often find half of each team trying to click on the southern node, as they all know trying to kill anybody is a complete waste of time in the light of overpowered heals.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.18.2013 , 04:22 PM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
While I don't agree that healers are all out OP, I can see more clearly your point about them being a viable 1v1 role. Reducing the magnitude of their self heals, or removing the ability to use some of the heals on themselves seems like it could bring about a solution to that issue.

I can't Guardian Leap to myself to reduce my damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds, and after reading your posts and playing heals to gather more knowledge of the situation, I can safely say that losing the effectiveness of self-heals would mean that I would have to depend on my teammates in the same way that other roles depend on the healer.
It's interesting to note that healers have the biggest 'increase healing received' effects out of all classes. If the goal is that healers are supposed to work with other characters, it should be the other way around. It seems like the healer tree is designed with the assumption since a healer is likely to get focus fired so he needs extra good self defenses to make up for it. This design is wrong. The defenses is supposed to come from your teammates, not yourself. Otherwise you might as well say since DPS are extra likely to die (due to their role) they should have the ability to self heal to 100% so they can continue doing their job (to DPS). No, the fact that DPS are likely to die is exactly why you have healers/tanks in the first place so that DPS are less likely to die. If DPS can simply heal themselves to full effectively, there would be no point to have tanks or healers. Similarly the fact that healers are likely to be focus fired is why the your tanks/DPS are supposed to be watching out for your healers.

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
05.18.2013 , 04:29 PM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by MajinUltima View Post
It's an exponential effect. If 1 competent dps isn't going to be reasonably able to kill 1 competent healer, then what happens when a 2nd dps and a tank or 2nd healer get involved? How do you capture a node within a reasonable timeframe when you cannot send an equal number of players and reasonably expect even a possibility success?
Well let's reverse your assumed propositions. Dps is a team role. They cannot tank or heal and are entirely dependent upon other classes to be able to fulfill their function. If you can't expect a healer or tank to kill 1 competent dps, then what happens when a 2nd dps gets involved? How can you capture a node within a reasonable time frame when you cannot send an equal number of players, (in this case a healer and dps to take out 2 dps) and reasonably expect even a possibility of success?

It's obvious dps are OP and their dmg abilities need to be reduced. Without this reduction there is a sever degradation of warzone mechanics.

Strip away the gobbledygook and you just want to be able to derp dps and are annoyed that now it isn't as easy as it was.

Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
05.18.2013 , 04:31 PM | #229
Basically, I see it like this.

If one team has a healer, and the other team does not, it's still a pretty balanced match. The PUG team can focus the enemy healer and still get a win.

If one team has two healers however, the balance dramatically shifts. It's much more difficult to take out two healers, since cross healing can be very powerful. It also puts two marks out there, making it more difficult to coordinate attacks in a PUG environment.

If it's one healer and one tank, it's a bit like two healers, though slightly easier to deal with. A paired tank/healer will still take a significantly longer time to kill though, potentially giving teammates plenty of time to reinforce.

Once you go over that, to two healers and a tank, or worse, two healers each with a dedicated tank, matches become very lopsided. Rarely does anyone on that team die, and most matches do require players to die so objectives can be captured. Even if a healer or two is on the second team, it just means that then no one on either team ever dies.

Healing probably needs reduced, or other abilities like guard/taunt. Or a combination of all three. I would not say damage needs to be increased though, as without healers TTK is painfully short.

Powercow's Avatar


Powercow
05.18.2013 , 04:32 PM | #230
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Sounds like you've never fought a strong defensive team in Voidstar. Taking the door by force is completely out of the question. Our team did the best strat they can because due to tab targetting being very unreliable in this game, doing this, combined with some CC, is the only chance to break through a defended door in Voidstar. If you can't kill defenders, there isn't even a point to try to DPS and you might as well chain click on the door as there's at least some small chance that will work. This is also the optimal strategy in Novare Coast against heal strong teams (chain clicking the node). In a game where both teams knows how the meta game goes, you'll often find half of each team trying to click on the southern node, as they all know trying to kill anybody is a complete waste of time in the light of overpowered heals.
So the defending team full of tanks and heals never thought to interrupt a bomb? I'm assuming one person on defense was guarding the other door, so somehow 5 of you managed to CC 7 of them for 8 seconds at the exact same time? Either they all clumped up for some double-flashbang action (which makes them bad), they had 3+ guys defending a door with nobody at it (which makes them bad), or there were members of their team who weren't CCd and they didn't even try to hit the people capping the door (which, again, makes them bad.) Or you're lying and that strategy didn't work, I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

And lol for that Novare Coast strategy. That one's not even worth commenting on if you think that's a valid strategy.