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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

Vladnar's Avatar


Vladnar
05.18.2013 , 08:35 AM | #211
Healers dominating pvp.................erm, why not try a sorcerer one yourself and see how you feel then lol...or a sage if you wish.
The time of the Empire is now truly upon us

Ajuntalee's Avatar


Ajuntalee
05.18.2013 , 08:50 AM | #212
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For multiple healers, it just takes more coordination. But remember that more healers means less dps and burst on that team. It evens out, or it should even out, for a rated team that has experience. I'm still trying to figure out how close to balanced the game is in rated warzones where people actually coordinate
all you said is kind of true, but in a pug environment.
healer + healer
healer + tank
healer + hybrid healer ( read a caster that remembers he can also heal if needed)
healer + hybrid tank ( read a dps who remembers he can still cast hist taunts without sacrificing any of his gcds)
is beyond the skill of 90% of existing pairs of PUG players to kill. let alone in a timely enough fashion to cap before the rest of the team arrives.

And in some instances I have seen one of those combos (healer + hybrid tank) to keep a whole team of pug ( 6~8 players) in chess right in front of their spawn, so yes those 6 guys need to rework something, but that is how ludicrously efficiently a good teamplaying pair of good player can perform in this game.

Now in a premade environment
a trio including a tank and 2 healers ( even if one is not fully heal specced) is virtually impossible to take down even for a whole team, in a group of 8 you can have 2 of these trios, and on alderande for example you can just slush the fights forever on both side turrets, respawning members will keep you from capping. should you by anychance clip anyone in the trio, he'll be back in no time.

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Healers dominating pvp.................erm, why not try a sorcerer one yourself and see how you feel then lol...or a sage if you wish.
sorcerer/operative/merc really they are all the same, and the problem is not really the classes themselves it is how well they stack with other healers, how well they stack with the guard/taunt mechanics, and how well they stack with the "damage reduction" buff of expertise/bolster.

I love the tank mechanics in this game I think it works as intended, when there is a tank people are bound to take him down first (barring he plays properly), because the healers are too costly to kill while he stands around.
changing the "damage reduction" buff of expertise/bolster for an "endurance increase" buff of the same amount would shift "sutained survivability" to "buffered survivability" and would leave the depth of the pvp gameplay ( cc / heal / guard / sustained dps and burst dps) unscathed. it would also make endurance a bit more desirable than it is now.

Pattotwo's Avatar


Pattotwo
05.18.2013 , 12:46 PM | #213
I think most of us have a healer now & with a little bit of gear, its bad arse. Lets not make out you haven't seen a op or sorc getting focused by 3-4 dps while the healer is just standing there healing through it and still getting a \wave in.
Plus when u kick a spell/heal getting casted, it's not like other MMO's and stopping a spells being cast in that tree, they just use another heal.

I don't think they should nerf any healing class or abilities, because that would effect PVE , but healing ATM is to much in PVP. No one likes playing when no one dies or very little & of course alot of healers are going to say there fine or need a buff, but it does kill good competition
So I suggest decrease the amount of healing on expertise, start by reducing it by 5% and monitor it for a couple weeks to see if its enough.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.18.2013 , 01:13 PM | #214
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What I hate is people who say a tank or DPS should NEVER be able to beat a healer 1v1.
Indeed it is a statement of ignorance, one born in the completely stupid notion that a healer should be able to stand there 1on1 and take it indefinitely. The raw output issue is a major concern but, more guilty, is the strength of various instant heals, especially on Operative/Scoundrel.

This is why there is very little, if any, complaining that Merc/Commando healing is overpowered. They hardcast or they don't heal. If left unchecked, they are competitive and can at least keep up with the output of a good dps (probably exceed it narrowly). Their Kolto Missile is awesome when it can land on 2 or more players and is instant, but it is very narrowly positional (half the radius of the top talent Op/Sco one), so you don't feel the sheer imbalance like you do with other specs.

Healing does need an output nerf in PVP, but how major that nerf needs to be is conditional. The more important fix is to force more hard casts into Operative/Scoundrel especially. 1.5sec cast on Kolto Probe would be the best solution. If you want to heal, you should have to stop and heal, not heal your entire team and yourself endlessly with basically no resource cost. (At least Force Bubble costs resources faster than said resource is regained and so cannot be maintained on several players nigh-indefinitely.)

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if you cant outdamage 2,2k of healing done by the strongest hot IG coming from ops/scound every three seconds you are not even worth to be called DD.
The max dps in PVE of fully geared characters is barely over 2k. Add in Expertise reductions, 10% elemental/internal resistance buff, LOS issues, stuns, slows, etc... I'd be impressed if you could maintain anywhere NEAR max dps in PVP. Some specs can burst for a lot more, but the sustained drops it a lot.

Good luck on a ranged hunting down a healer constantly ducking behind Voidstar pylons, ACW turrets, Huttball walls, for example, especially if said ranged class is heavily dependent on hardcast abilities. Even melee has trouble on a moving target constantly LOSing around a terrain object.

Did I mention Guard/Taunts exist? Because remember the fact that you're not doing anywhere near 2k dps sustained in PVP... cut that in half, or lower. When you drop to ~800 dps and their HOTs heal ~3x that amount every 3 seconds... oh, imagine that, it's mathematically impossible to win. (These are really just example numbers. His was an example, mine's an example. His example number combined with browsing pve forums for spec information does help give some bonus perspective though.)

It is remarks like this that reflect the ignorance of the fact that healing output is pretty much insane compared to dps output.

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I mean in a perfect world the game.. most times there are 2 healers 2 tanks 4 dps.. Those 2 healers are responsible for keeping people alive vs the 2 tanks and 4 dps.. That does not mean that their heals will out do the damage dealt, it means that including those players Defensive cooldowns.. personal heals.. Positioning , Those heals will help subsidize the damage being dealt to them. This will allow them to either kill the opposing player or escape to safety to try again.
A freecasting healer should be putting out substantial output, not unbeatable output. And a focused healer should be a dead healer, within a reasonable timeframe. Like you said, defensive cooldowns, guards, taunts, position and LOS issues, etc.

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All I see here is "Healers must be gods else they are useless."
Welcome to MMO PVP. Healers always want more buffs for themselves and feel like no one should ever die because they're "skilled" and their "skill" means they're beating those "noob dps". These healers are often on premade teams who believe they are winning with "skill" rather than relying on overpowered healers and, just as often, whatever flavor of the month specs are overpowered as well.

People saying premades should get removed are silly. Server pops are low enough that even without queuing together, it would be easy for several people to queue at the same time and mostly end up together. Further, premades themselves aren't a problem, and you should be able to play with friends. The problem is premades exploiting healer imbalance for consistent wins that have absolutely zero to deal with personal skill, and come entirely from overpowered healing mixed with higher gear.

If you won all the time and delusionally attributed it to your own "skill", I'm sure you'd claim healing is fine and pvp is well balanced too. Player Egos do that.

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
05.18.2013 , 01:21 PM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by skarlson View Post
The sheer abundance of healers on pub side or the sheer lack of healers imp side generally are the biggest issues I have observed on Jung Ma.
Maybe Empire faction players just aren't - as a tendency - altruistic players ? And i mean players, not characters !

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.18.2013 , 01:32 PM | #216
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I have a scoundrel and I have spec'd heals before and did so while wearing dps gear. All I have to say is that it is brain dead easy, especially now that probes are dirt cheap and you can practically spam them. Topple that with emergency medpack and the class is a cake walk. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten down to 10% hp and then walked away with over 60% hp while having time to emote.
My experience on my Operative is much the same. The fact that the Kolto Probes, medpacs, whatever proc more free instant heals (which itself refunds its own cost on low health targets) is pretty ridiculous. The Probes are such a long duration and so cheap that if you played Whack-A-Mole with the buff durations, you could literally keep the entire team under endless HOTs for effectively free.

It is completely faceroll easy.
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The big problem I see is that healing itself is not a very fun or rewarding experience in random WZs if you can't outheal the 1 DPS hanging on your backside.
It's not very fun or rewarding imo at all. Players have their own preferences. I hate playing healers in PVP, I'm fine with tank specs (love tank vanguard and assassin), and usually dps spec the other clases. People confuse "being useful" with "well I'm a healer so I shouldn't lose to some scrub dps". Sorry but you should. You're a TEAM support role, not a tank. If you want to be near-unkillable 1on1 with a dps, then play a tank spec, that's what TANKS should be doing.

A lot of healers want to be solo kings while also being exponentially stronger in a team setting... that's not how things should go. The more team oriented your spec and class are, the worse you should be in smaller (or solo) engagements. A tank is awesome solo or in a duo, they lose a lot of value the more players get added... they can only guard 1 player at a time, only taunt 1 enemy at a time (on a short cooldown) and don't do the full damage of a dps. A healer excels the larger an engagement gets, this is their role, and this is their value.

If you want that small-scale individualistic gratification, don't play a team support role. Plain and simple.

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Check out the dps. There were only 2 players who put out up about 500k damage, and they were on your team. The empire team sucked.
You are misreading the data by a LOT. The Empire team died more without healers, so they did less damage, you do less damage when you die. The Republic team died a LOT less because of his completely overpowered healing which, mind you, is UNDERSTATED in that chart (his overheals aren't being counted). Longer-lived players have an easier time doing more damage. I'd also be willing to bet the JK with high damage is Smash inflated and that the Smuggler was spamming Shrap Bombs. In addition to not dying thanks to overpowered healing, their damage is overstated by a lot of AOE inflation.

Your interpretation is what the ignorant usually see, and mistake for a "skill" differential. They see 1 team "sucked" and the other team did not, without understanding that the difference in deaths is because of the healer... who mathematically stomped everyone else's output in that game. There may or may not have been a skill difference at play, we'll never know. What IS visible is that the healer mathematically destroyed everyone else in output, with 2 likely AOE inflated specs being the only players even close... even then, they don't match up WITH the inflation, and that's not counting his overheals. His true effective output in that match could be over 1 million, while those 2 high dps only effectively did 300-400k.

This is the kind of misconception that reinforces this horribly imbalanced situation.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.18.2013 , 02:10 PM | #217
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Why do people always assume the DPS were bad? Like I said, yesterday I had a game where we have 5 total deaths and completely demolished the enemy side. Our top DPS (Smasher who never died) barely beat the enemy Sage healer that promptly died in every encounter and never casted Deliverance and had no Guard. He still beat all but one of our DPS in HPS done, and our DPS can't do better than killing him the moment he shows up. It took a smasher with 0 deaths to beat a healer in DPS done versus HPS done in a game we dominated from beginning to end. In any remotely even matchup not even the Smasher could've beaten the healer because he's probably going to actually die a few times and the opposing healer is likely to have a Guard.
People assume the DPS were bad because that's how they justify to themselves that they are "skilled" when their healer-crutch premade wins. Clearly they who win are skilled and their enemies who lost were "bad", how can you not see that this only boils down to skill?

THAT is the kind of ego-driven logic you're competing with.

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Im not really understanding. The argument is/was healing is to powerful. He provided a screen shot where team A had 2 healers and team B had 3 healers. If healing was so overpowered/easy as he is arguing, then why would team b not easily win?
Healing really doesn't guarantee victory. If you're too dumb to watch the pylon/door/turret/bunker or can't throw a huttball, healing can't fix that. There ARE objectives in Warzones. Judging from his description, I'd assume it was some Voidstar slugfest. I've been in Voidstar slugfests where one side completely dominates the other in output (dps and healing, usually high dps because of the healing) and then, because no doors were lost, a coin flip at the end just gives it to one side... or maybe 1 door was lost really late in a round and the underdog team manages to snipe a victory.

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Yes I am!!!!! There is a guy putting up 350k damage and complaining healing is OP.
Bad DPS can pull twice that just because a healer keeps them alive an entire match. Good DPS can pull half that because they're killed on sight without healer support. Clearly though, you and your guildies in your premade are awesome, and your healing/damage numbers are only because of skill... and NOT because overpowered healing keeps your dps alive longer to increase their damage done.

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Dear OP,
Try a CM Commando and rethink about what you typed.
I've actually softened a lot on the Merc/Commando side, as you may have noticed in several of my progressive posts. You guys have a lot of hardcasts which makes you capable of BEING focused and BEING interrupted. If any healing spec is ACTUALLY balanced, it'd be you guys and you guys ONLY.

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Top DPS (some BH) our side: 500K damage, 1 death.
Top healer (Sage) their side: 600K healed, 7 deaths.
Don't forget that overhealing and unused force bubble wasn't included. Sage's true output is probably another 100-200k above that.

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So wait youre basing your argument on the fact that the healer had more HPS than the DPS had DPS.... that doesn't mean squat, a sage healer especially can heal EIGHT people at one time with their AOE heal, which will inflate their numbers significantly.... next argument please because this one is invalid.
Ignorance at its finest. Salvation requiring everyone to stack in it, for one thing, would subject the entire team to a ton of free AOE bonus damage. Furthermore, the Sage DIED several times (7 actually), meaning he spent upwards of 3-4min not even participating in the warzone. Further beyond that, thanks to how Sage/Sorc resources work, he poentially could've burned a LOT more Force spamming Benevolence/Dark Heal and inflating his numbers even more.

Your ignorance of warzone and class mechanics causes you to not realize that the Sage/Sorc could easily pull twice what he was doing... and MORE if he didn't die. His actual output as a healer was at least twice what the other team's top dps was.... and he died 7 times as often. That was the point.

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Okay, I think I get it now. The healers are basically saying if they don't outperform the enemy top DPS they'd never be wanted because having a healer tag means you should automatically outperform the enemy team's best DPS.
Pretty much. A lot of Healers want an I Win Button. They feel they should be worth more than 1 player 1on1 and exponentially worth more in a team scenario. They just don't want to have to deal with that whole "team" mechanic to be good, they should be better than "scrub dps" even when solo. "My 1 healer is supposed to be 1/4 of the team therefore I should heal equal to 4 players' worth of damage"... followed by promptly packing 3-4 healers or hybrids in an 8-man team.

People are supposed to die in warzones. Healing is supposed to slow that rate for your team, not prevent it entirely.

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then I realize that all of you are just hiding behind that veil and realize that if they balanced out healing you would suddenly be terrible at the game.
Not necessarily terrible, but definitely mediocre. And they don't want to be on the same level as those "scrubs" and pugs. They're "better" than them.

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He is not talking about the healer. He is talking about the tank. In the video he shows 2 healer freecasting the tank and the other team not being able to bring down the tank. Not once did the other team try to kill the healer.
The point of the video seems to be not whether or not the tank + healers COULD be killed by focusing the heals, but as a demonstration that the output of the freecasting healers is SO high that it completely nulls the damage on the tank. Which is back to the point that healers are mathematically overpowered.

I will agree that obviously bad decision making like that shouldn't pan out but such a huge discrepancy in healer vs dps output is unacceptable.

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I don't know what game you play but even when I was bubble spec I could out heal the highest damage.
Exactly. You don't even dedicate to the healing tree and still mathematically dominate dps. And that's NOT counting your overheals and unused bubbles which you spent resources on and weren't even counted.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.18.2013 , 02:40 PM | #218
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Less fun for you.
Some people enjoy matches that are close and go down to the wire.
When it is due to good gameplay, not due to "lol heals no one dies". An imbalanced game where people don't die because specs are overpowered is not fun.
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The most valid point I take from all of it (whether it was your intended point or not) is that teamwork is now required to down a healer.
Actually that point isn't valid, without context. Teamwork should NOT be required to kill a healer just because "lol a healer". Teamwork should be required in a TEAM vs TEAM situation. It should not take more than 1 person to kill 1 solo healer, within a reasonable timeframe.

Healers are a TEAM role and should be effective in such, but they shouldn't also just dominate solo situations as well. When Merc/Commando does well, it's in a team. You won't see solo Merc/Commandos getting chased by 2+ people and taking forever to die. You will constantly see solo Sorc/Ops getting chased by multiple people and not dying due to their instant heals and escape mechanisms.

So no, the point is NOT universally valid. A healer without a team should be a dead healer, and pretty quickly at that. A healer within the context of a team (who can guard, taunt, peel, stun, etc) should require some coordination from the other team to die. They should also suffer performance decrease from being the focus of attention, not this "My heals only INCREASE because I can Kolto Probe MORE people! lol".
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The problem could very well be that the OP, like many others, aren't accustomed to strategies and gameplans concerning support classes.
I am familiar and that is the point. There's no strategy in being overpowered. Voidstar was changed with that giant gate in the middle precisely because it was so easy to turtle the first set of doors with healers. Now, healing has inflated SO much that once again max level Voidstar will often turn into a turtle fest. The warzone literally had to be changed because of the impact healing output had on it... and healing output has gotten so much MORE out of control that even the change was overcome. There was a time when the change came down that Voidstar matches actually ended based on who reached the latter doors or datacore first, because BOTH teams were often able to make legitimate progress!

Shouldn't be able to run away with Kolto Probes and just not-die without being heavily ganged up on. If I'm a healer running off alone, I should be dead. And that is the problem. The support role is beating out the solo role and then scaling UP when teams are involved.
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Highest overall recorded damage in 2.0 to date is 2.6m (link). Highest recorded healing is 4.3m.
Highest recorded dps is 2589, highest hps is 2907 (link).

These are the only numbers I'm aware of, and it shows quite obviously that healing is higher.
Yes healers can still be killed with proper focus/swapping and use of cc, but the healing is still over the damage by a significant margin.
Keep in mind that the recorded damage output is still inflated with some wasted unproductive damage. The healing output is STILL understated thanks to overhealing.
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i wonder what what happen if there was ever a match with 8 healers vs 8 dpsers. what would happen
Assuming similar skill levels, it will still boil down to the individual classes involved. Several of the dps specs can still off-heal in dps spec, as well as taunt (or even guard), so the dps team will suffer very few casualties. Lack of taunt and guard on the healer team kills their utility in this absurd scenario.

Poor damage output combined with lacking as much secondary role utility would likely doom a straight-healer team. The warzone itself also matters. The scenario favors the dps team due to flexibility in class composition being anything from among 8 classes and the utility that comes from that flexibility. The healer team only has 3 functional classes and lacks all access to off-tank utility.

Now if it was All Healers vs Marauder+Sniper only... I'd say the healer team has the edge in most warzones. Snipers can be LOSd a lot while the Marauders can be chain CCed, making it hard for the DPS only classes to focus players down, especially in a timely manner. The healing team can constantly rotate around its players while injured players LOS the snipers. Both teams die very slowly but if either side is going to manage a clean-sweep long enough to get a 2-1 objective lead, I'd give to to the healer team.

A pointless hypothetical but it was fun to speculate.

Jorojus's Avatar


Jorojus
05.18.2013 , 02:51 PM | #219
This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.

I don't say you have too, but why don't you try forming a pre-made and learn to play together ? I can assure you you'll have more fun in this game.

If you really don't like it make a topic in the suggestion forum to actually separate pugs from pre-mades as much as possible in a future patch. But then, you'll have the problem that if there aren't enough pre-made teams queed or an uneven number they'll never get a pop.

The big question is, what do you do in an mmo if you want to play solo too I guess ?
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Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.18.2013 , 03:00 PM | #220
Quote: Originally Posted by Jorojus View Post
This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.

I don't say you have too, but why don't you try forming a pre-made and learn to play together ? I can assure you you'll have more fun in this game.

If you really don't like it make a topic in the suggestion forum to actually separate pugs from pre-mades as much as possible in a future patch.
Um no the point is that effect of healing has on the state of gameplay. Healing is so prevalent now even PUGs often have 3 healers. This leads to warped outcomes where one side and sometime both sides have single digit total deaths and the outcome is often determined by who can click on an objective faster. I had one Voidstar game where we defended our round fine, and noted that the enemy is basically the same composition as we do (heavy heals/defense), but we knocked down their door at 4 minutes into the game and won. Since I was attacking the other door I asked what brilliant plan did we do to crack their defense, and the response was 'we had 3 guys capping the door from starting of the match and eventually one of them succeeded'. Games like that are becoming increasing common and I can't imagine them being very fun for anybody involved.