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Bloodthirst needs a Global Cooldown


Korse's Avatar


Korse
05.15.2013 , 12:16 PM | #31
A class is part of a role in an operation. Purposefully diminishing a class because of another role it has the potential to fill at a separate point in time is dumb. Then all dps classes would become sniper and marauder. Also, are there that many raid groups out there switching roles throughout the run?

During a boss fight, things like cc and taunt for dps don't matter. I still don't think vanish/rez should exist in a boss fight. Or an assassin stealthing and changing gear. So stealth shouldn't matter. What you do with and how you handle trash really makes no difference. That's why it's called trash. It's the crap you're forced to wade through for the parts of the operation that matter.

I'm not arguing that bloodthirst is necessary. I'm arguing against classes that have far more group utility (and personal as well) than other classes.

This is a necessary step. Once enough people complain about imbalance, the change occurs. I have to post this. In my raid group, everyone does the same damage. Or about the same damage. Ranged classes (which include warriors because of leap) usually have an edge because the majority of movement for them is fire over chasing a boss. I had to struggle with which class to use as my main for 2.0 because I knew the damage/utility argument was going to be a factor. Bioware let me down and doesn't seem to care about damage/utility balance at all.

Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
05.15.2013 , 12:23 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
Ranged classes (which include warriors because of leap).
uhhh what?
Warriors are not a ranged class.

Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
05.15.2013 , 12:26 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
It's not the point that you can't clear content without maras. The point is groups are rewarded for bringing 4 of the same exact class and there is nothing to discourage them.
Rewarded how? Please tell me how groups are being rewarded for bringing 4 Marauders?
Now tell me how those that do these ops WITHOUT Marauders are cheated?

Jayshames's Avatar


Jayshames
05.15.2013 , 12:30 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
It's not the point that you can't clear content without maras. The point is groups are rewarded for bringing 4 of the same exact class and there is nothing to discourage them.

And some of the above posts are very wrong, bloodthirst is a 15% increase to dps and healing for 15 seconds with a 5 min cooldown. I also specified operations which has 8 people, presumably 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps.
Thread still makes no sense to me.. how can they use it "constant" if it's a 5 min cooldown and only lasts 15 seconds. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if each Marauder uses their bloodthirst after the previous runs out, doesn't that still give a 4 minute window when no one is buffed by it?
SCOTLAND

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.15.2013 , 12:30 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
A class is part of a role in an operation. Purposefully diminishing a class because of another role it has the potential to fill at a separate point in time is dumb. Then all dps classes would become sniper and marauder. Also, are there that many raid groups out there switching roles throughout the run?

During a boss fight, things like cc and taunt for dps don't matter. I still don't think vanish/rez should exist in a boss fight. Or an assassin stealthing and changing gear. So stealth shouldn't matter. What you do with and how you handle trash really makes no difference. That's why it's called trash. It's the crap you're forced to wade through for the parts of the operation that matter.

I'm not arguing that bloodthirst is necessary. I'm arguing against classes that have far more group utility (and personal as well) than other classes.

This is a necessary step. Once enough people complain about imbalance, the change occurs. I have to post this. In my raid group, everyone does the same damage. Or about the same damage. Ranged classes (which include warriors because of leap) usually have an edge because the majority of movement for them is fire over chasing a boss. I had to struggle with which class to use as my main for 2.0 because I knew the damage/utility argument was going to be a factor. Bioware let me down and doesn't seem to care about damage/utility balance at all.
As soon as they take away your ability to respec to tank role, then I'll be okay giving up utility. Simple as that. And utility is not a factor. There's a common statement: "Take the player, not the class". Our guild would not make someone reroll to Marauder if we had none in our group, nor would we take one who was subpar over a non-marauder who did good dps. So your utility argument is sort of moot.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.15.2013 , 12:33 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Jayshames View Post
Thread still makes no sense to me.. how can they use it "constant" if it's a 5 min cooldown and only lasts 15 seconds. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if each Marauder uses their bloodthirst after the previous runs out, doesn't that still give a 4 minute window when no one is buffed by it?
The OP is making a hyperbole. Basically, if you 4 marauders as your dps, they would all share their BT with each other, giving them 20% dps increase that couldn't happen if you used 4 snipers, or 4 PT's, etc.

It's really a trivial argument in trying to make their own dps more viable, but most guilds in ToR go by the player. I have yet to see any need to stack dps classes in this game like you do in WoW... except for range having an advantage over melee.

The_Rye_Guy's Avatar


The_Rye_Guy
05.15.2013 , 01:06 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
It's really a trivial argument in trying to make their own dps more viable, but most guilds in ToR go by the player. I have yet to see any need to stack dps classes in this game like you do in WoW... except for range having an advantage over melee.
Current content is easy so composition balance doesn't matter?

If a player has both a powertech and a marauder, both filling the same role. How do you justify taking the powertech dps over the marauder?

Also the inability to build fury while BT is going does not counter BT's benefit for addition marauders. Almost a non issue for Carnage.
Boat - Operative, Healer
Yacht - Operative, Healer
Ryeguy - Sith Marauder

bigheadbrandon's Avatar


bigheadbrandon
05.15.2013 , 01:15 PM | #38
this thread gave me cancer

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.15.2013 , 01:20 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by The_Rye_Guy View Post
Current content is easy so composition balance doesn't matter?

If a player has both a powertech and a marauder, both filling the same role. How do you justify taking the powertech dps over the marauder?
Wrong. What are you saying: That PT's should get as much utility as Marauders or that PT's should do more DPS than a Marauder? That's called the Utility Tax. Which is a bad premise because it's easily countered by using the Hybrid Tax that a PT is. No point in taking a Marauder if the PT has just as much utility (or does more DPS) and I and I have the PT respec to tank in case of raid composition problems. You can't have a Marauder respec to another role.

Your argument is just as bad as when people are that Marauders and Snipers are the only "True" DPS classes in the game, hence that's why they should do more DPS. I have never argued in favor of that because I do not believe in the Hybrid Tax. But I'm definitely not going to be okay with a Utility Tax either.

And as most guilds go, if two people do the same DPS, you take the player, not the class.

Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.15.2013 , 01:46 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
The OP did not specify in his post, however several posters that know Ifrit have been using the word "melee" in their responses. Marauders and snipers are definitely the top two targets of my conversations about overpowered classes, however I know that Ifrit's raising the same question I have many times: Why would you bring any melee class to a fight other than marauders? In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

Also, nothing in this game really requires any actual class composition, so bringing the classes that are not in damage and utility balance (overpowered) instead of the other classes makes the content even more trivial. I think Ifrit's underlying argument is that the classes are not balanced so that every class has damage equivalent to their personal raid utility.
He did specify, his argument is that they do great dps and they have a group wide damage increase. The two together are his justification. The other melee classes can do about the same damage (depending on player skill and gearing). The only difference is that they bring different utilities to the raid that are not flat damage increases.

Let me be more clear, if you think rolling 4 Marauders is the way to go for the max dps, you have no idea how classes do damage. The constant Bloodlusts will nerf the damage the Marauders do. The Bloodlusts can and will be clipped due to mechanics. If you want to make a point for having one per raid, sure....that is valid and understandable. However, putting a raid wide CD on the use of Bloodlust will not effect that raid.....
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger