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Bloodthirst needs a Global Cooldown


ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
05.16.2013 , 01:33 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBuckets View Post
In my opinion, Bloodthirst could use some re-balancing / re-structuring.

In addition to his or her own damage and assuming all DPS being equal, a single Marauder contributes additional damage to the raid due to Bloodthirst (not counting the significant added benefits of controlling it for burn phases / CD stacking). This damage is attributed to the Marauder's groupmates in parses, but it is really contributed by the Marauder. If DPS contribution is the only balancing factor, then Marauders should be parsing a certain % behind the other classes, equal to the DPS that Bloodthirst provided. If there is a DPS balance issue in the Marauder's favor, Bloodthirst accentuates the discrepancy by at least that %.

Multiple Marauders tripping over each others' Fury could be a problem if you hyperbolically bring ONLY Marauders, but there is no appreciable downside to bringing at least one Marauder per 4 players. At the very least, I think 2 Marauders per 4-man group would be totally viable.

I'm not sold that a "Hybrid tax" is important at all in PVE. With the exception of the value of using 2 vs 3 tanks on some fights in 16man, I don't see top tier players switching all that much mid-run (especially with the way gear acquisition is now). If role-hopping is required, they need gear (especially the DPS -> tank swap). On top of that, this game is extremely alt friendly. Most off-spec gear collected can be transferred to alts via Legacy gear. With the exception of acquired Ear/Implants/Relic (and some base Armorings/Barrels for off-hands), a character with an alt with a different role offers the exact same "hybrid" utility that a character capable of respeccing between encounters does. PVP is a different matter, as being able to respec mid-warzone to a different role in order to counter the enemy team or map is of valid usefulness.

In combat, in non-trivial PVE encounters, if a DPS Sorc is off-healing or a Pyro is off-tanking adds (which doesn't really happen - DPS taunting the boss in PVE isn't really a valid tactic / help in most cases), I would consider that utility. I would say that a "Utility Tax" should definitely be factored into PVE class balance, but out-of-combat options and things that do not work during non-trivial PVE encounters should not.

The important part of discussing Bloodthirst are the following:

1. Is Bloodthirst mandatory (or greatly beneficial with no downsides)?
(I understand that the word "Mandatory" can be subjective here - the current content is all easy and a buff is only really appreciated if an encounter's tuning pushes up against the efficacy of a given group).

If so, a single role / single class out of 8 bringing it is a comp problem that affects class balance, operations comp, and representation in progression.

On top of that, multiple Bloodthirsts can be used in a given group sequentially to added benefit. There really aren't many buffs/debuffs left like that other than Sniper's shield, but a defensive buff is only valuable if you really need it, whereas damage output is always desirable.

If fights get tuned in nightmare to require DPS in BIS firing on all cylinders to make Enrage, the additional DPS that Marauders bring via Bloodlust can and will make a difference, skewing group comp. 16man NM tanks pre-nerf is probably the best example of this.

2. Do Marauders do appropriately tuned damage and provide appropriate utility relative to other classes in light of the great DPS contribution that Bloodthirst provides?

If Marauders are on top of the charts *and* they boost the other DPS via Bloodthirst *and* the other DPS classes don't have additional utility / contributing factors that make them situationally preferable over Marauders, then there is a PVE class balance issue.

I don't think Bloodthirst needs to be removed or trivialized. I think it is a worthwhile mechanic and a good "macro" gameplay element for a group attempting an Operation. However, its current incarnation makes Marauder stacking a net gain over other comps with no apparent downsides. My suggestions would be the following:
* Give a similar effect to at least one other class so that Marauders are not "required" in every Operation.
* Make it a raid wide buff.
* Put a debuff on the raid after use to avoid stacking multiple Bloodthirsts in a given time period.
* If Marauders do an appreciably lower amount of damage relative to other classes from the loss of a scalable Bloodthirst, give them a minor buff to compensate.

I also don't think Marauders need to be nerfed unless hard data proves a discrepancy, although re-structuring Bloodthirst would be seen as a nerf by many. I don't have metrics other than parses and my individual group, but *if* there is a discrepancy in damage output, I would like to see additional utility/toys given to the specs without them, or their base DPS brought up to compensate for their lack of things like Bloodthirst. In evaluating usefulness of classes in PVE, there is a pecking order right now for most people I've spoken to:
1. Snipers and Marauders on top
2. Other Ranged - Sorc and Merc - decent damage, some fights prefer ranged (although Darvannis and Asation don't really have many issues)
3. Powertech - decent damage, still represented because they were single-target top dogs pre-2.0, no real utility in PVE
4. Leftovers - DPS Jugg, DPS Op, DPS Sin - underrepresented and no significant utility in PVE

That being said, balance is "close enough" to be pretty good in PVE right now, especially since we are without a legitimate progression tier until they implement Nightmare TFB.

In my opinion, Bloodthirst could use some tweaks though.

This man speaks good sense. I do think some of the other melee classes should be given some sort of similar utility. Maybe give the Shadow DPS classes a localized damage buff while phase walk is up, somewhat similar to how shadow shelter works now. This would incentivize bringing shadows, and since the ability has other utility and whatnot in PVP would not break them there. Putting a similar sort of totem buff (not to stack with shadows) for vanguards would also be useful. Theoretically then you could have one buff ranged, one buff melee, and then you have a reason to bring both. It's not the damage per se where the other melee classes are so far behind. From a DPS perspective I do feel all the classes are pretty close and equally viable for the most part, but the utility issue is valid, especially for melee DPS (ranged DPS is often a healing utility all its own).
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Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.16.2013 , 01:36 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
In order to draw valid conclusions using statistics, I think you need good data. I don't think you can call uploaded logs from Torparse good data as it does not tell the entire story of a raid or boss kill. Further, you can not ensure it wasn't doctored. And, you don't have every raid member's data to analyze. Still, I believe it is directionally accurate. And directionally, it indicates that Marauders/Sentinels are the best melee DPS, and maybe the best DPS.

I come to this conclusion by examining the fights where enrage time is more challenging such as 8m HM Golden Fury and HM Dread Stryak. I think it makes sense to examine these fights only to figure out what the best DPS classes are because you need the best DPS in these fights. (Thinking back to my first paragraph, I would not say this conclusive, but you were the one who suggested that DPS rankings from boss fights was the appropriate measure.)

OK, so now we have established that Marauders/Sentinels offer the best damage in the fights where enrage is a real issue. How do they compare where enrage is not as tight? Using the same measurement, we see that they are not necessarily the best DPS option in these fights. But, the question is are the liability? The have sufficient defensive abilities and other utility such as Predation/Transcendence. Clearly they do not offer healing capabilities or taunts, but in theory your DPS should never have to do this even if it makes some fights/phases easier. The answer is no Marauders/Sentinels are not a liability in these other fights.

Given all of this, doesn't it make sense to stack four Marauders/Sentinels if your objective is to have the easiest time killing the hardest bosses?
You are still flawed. You are only examining the tightest enrage timer fights. I highly doubt any group doing these fights has their superuberpowered Marauders on the bench for the first 6 fights of the instance and then bring them out on the last one. Why would you do that? Not to mention the gearing issue of multiple toons (Get all the good UW pieces before final boss --> swap to undergeared Marauder = Win?!......)

Look at Dingy's log, he is the "Top Marauder" for Styrak on 8 man (Not trying to call him out or anything)....he would be a good example of why Maras should have Bloodthirst redesigned, right? Hmmm, Why doesn't he rank in the top 5 or 10 in the rest of the fights? Logic would dictate since he is sooo OP in the "tightest enrage" in the game that he should be doing top damage in the "Easy" fights, no?

Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
Incidentally, you realize the vast majority of the logs you cited had their damage boosted by one if not two Bloodthirst/Inspiration during those fights?
Sure, no complain here. That does not disprove or prove anything. The OP was complaining about how stacking 4 Bloodthirsts in a single group creates an over-powered situation. In the examples I was given, there were not 4 Bloodthirsts.

Now if you guys WANT to argue OP, your "proper" argument SHOULD be:

Bloodthirst does too much damage.
It forces 16 man ops groups to invite 9 Marauders and 1 Sniper for dps.
Once the first Bloodthirst is done, the Marauder is rotated out of the group with the sniper.
A new Marauder is rotated in to provide buff.
This gives the Sniper more then 2 minutes of a 15 % damage increase.
If said sniper is running Engineering on a boss with a large hit box, he will be doing OP dps.
Please readjust this ability.


I think we can all agree that this is a unique case that falls on the outside of the data sets for groups. Looking at class balance as a whole, it is not any better to choose Marauders as the only mdps class. (Hell on our ALT imp side runs we have 3 Snipers and 1 Operative and we meet the dps check for Styrak.................we don't need no Marauder, or sorc for that matter.....but that is another story)
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oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
05.16.2013 , 01:59 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
You are still flawed....
How can I still be flawed - that was my first post since page #1?

I am absolutely only examining the fights with the tightest enrage timers intentionally. Again, I believe the goal is to clear ALL of the content. Your ability to clear all of the fights hinges on your ability to defeat the hardest bosses, right? Thus, these represent the fights where maximum DPS is most important. In every one of these fights, the suggestion has been made that 4 Marauders/Sentinels offer the best/easiest chance of defeating the boss. And, the Top 10 on Torparse indicates that Marauders/Sentinels are best at these fights.

Thus, I posed the question if 4 Marauders/Sentinels would be a liability in the other boss fights where enrage was not as tight. I believe I outlined reasons why they are not a liability. And, I did concede that other classes will out DPS them. As you point out gearing other DPS classes is inefficient. Thus, as long as 4 Marauders/Sentinels are not a liability in the other boss fights you are best served by employing them to make defeating the hardest or tightest enrage bosses easier.

To be clear, I am not proposing any change to Bloodthirst/Inspiration. But I do feel that The_Rye_Guy and Korse are accurate that stacking 4 Marauders/Sentinels is best. Individually, they appear to do the best damage on the hardest fights. And, stacking 4 of them provides even greater damage output through successive uses of Bloodthirst/Inspiration. Further, they provide enough damage and utility to clear the rest of the bosses with relative ease. (Admittedly, some of the other bosses could be even easier with other classes.)

In summary, Marauders/Sentinels perform best on the hardest bosses, and perform at a sufficient level to kill the other bosses. Thus, the easiest way to defeat the hardest bosses and the entire raid will be with 4 Marauders/Sentinels. If you disagree with the argument/logic can you explain why?

Note: I am not saying that other DPS can not defeat the hardest bosses. And, this is a separate argument/debate from whether Bloodthirst/Inspiration is over-powered.
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.16.2013 , 02:02 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
In order to draw valid conclusions using statistics, I think you need good data. I don't think you can call uploaded logs from Torparse good data as it does not tell the entire story of a raid or boss kill. Further, you can not ensure it wasn't doctored. And, you don't have every raid member's data to analyze. Still, I believe it is directionally accurate. And directionally, it indicates that Marauders/Sentinels are the best melee DPS, and maybe the best DPS.

I come to this conclusion by examining the fights where enrage time is more challenging such as 8m HM Golden Fury and HM Dread Stryak. I think it makes sense to examine these fights only to figure out what the best DPS classes are because you need the best DPS in these fights. (Thinking back to my first paragraph, I would not this conclusive, but you were the one who suggested that DPS rankings from boss fights was the appropriate measure.)

OK, so now we have established that Marauders/Sentinels offer the best damage in the fights where enrage is a real issue. How do they compare where enrage is not as tight? Using the same measurement, we see that they are not necessarily the best DPS option in these fights. But, the question is are the liability? The have sufficient defensive abilities and other utility such as Predation/Transcendence. Clearly they do not offer healing capabilities or taunts, but in theory your DPS should never have to do this even if it makes some fights/phases easier. The answer is no Marauders/Sentinels are not a liability in these other fights.

Given all of this, doesn't it make sense to stack four Marauders/Sentinels if your objective is to have the easiest time killing the hardest bosses?

Incidentally, you realize the vast majority of the logs you cited had their damage boosted by one if not two Bloodthirst/Inspiration during those fights?
Not sure I entirely agree. I believe in Styrak and GF, the reason Marauders shine is that there's no way to pad meters with AoE, no real running around so very little disconnect, and little downtime, certainly not enough to make you lose out on keeping the stacks rolling. These two are essentially Patchwork fights and we've already seen how good Marauders parse on operation dummies (and how at 30% and lower their dps goes up higher with VT).

So, I'm going off the premise that DPS is fairly equal between all classes. In that case, the point is whether it's fair that Marauders (and Snipers) should have better utility. It depends how key those utility bonuses are. And this is comparing melee dps amongst melee dps since, if all things are equal, you might as well bring all ranged to every fight because there's never a detriment for a ranges standing 30 meters away... or 3 meters.

I'm okay with people saying it needs to be reworked, but not what the OP suggests. That swings the issue to far the other way and would turn into a "why would we need to bring more than one marauder" where he's asking, "why would we bring anyone besides a marauder".

So I'd suggest that BT still have it's 5 min cooldown, but only affects the Marauder. That way, stacking Marauder doesn't help and doesn't give them more utility beyond predation and a dot heal if they're Anni spec'd. You don't like our game, well, then we're taking our ball with us.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.16.2013 , 02:04 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
This man speaks good sense. I do think some of the other melee classes should be given some sort of similar utility. Maybe give the Shadow DPS classes a localized damage buff while phase walk is up, somewhat similar to how shadow shelter works now. This would incentivize bringing shadows, and since the ability has other utility and whatnot in PVP would not break them there. Putting a similar sort of totem buff (not to stack with shadows) for vanguards would also be useful. Theoretically then you could have one buff ranged, one buff melee, and then you have a reason to bring both. It's not the damage per se where the other melee classes are so far behind. From a DPS perspective I do feel all the classes are pretty close and equally viable for the most part, but the utility issue is valid, especially for melee DPS (ranged DPS is often a healing utility all its own).
I will repeat my statement: If other melee classes want more utility, then it's only fair you give Marauders the ability to have a spec for healing or tanking.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.16.2013 , 02:07 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
How can I still be flawed - that was my first post since page #1?

I am absolutely only examining the fights with the tightest enrage timers intentionally. Again, I believe the goal is to clear ALL of the content. Your ability to clear all of the fights hinges on your ability to defeat the hardest bosses, right? Thus, these represent the fights where maximum DPS is most important. In every one of these fights, the suggestion has been made that 4 Marauders/Sentinels offer the best/easiest chance of defeating the boss. And, the Top 10 on Torparse indicates that Marauders/Sentinels are best at these fights.
Actually, no. As I just stated, Marauders do such great dps because these are essentially Patchwerk fights with little downtime. And the other poster's point has merit: If Marauders do top dps in the hardest fights simply because they have the best dps, then they should have the best dps in other fights as well. The fact that they clearly do not means that they are top dps situationally.

oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
05.16.2013 , 02:09 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Actually, no. As I just stated, Marauders do such great dps because these are essentially Patchwerk fights with little downtime. And the other posters point has merit: If Marauders do top dps in the hardest fights simply because they have the best dps, then they should have the best dps in other fights as well. The fact that they clearly do not means that they are top dps situationally.
At present, the hardest fights or those with the tightest enrage times are where Marauders/Sentinels do best, right? So bringing 4 of them make these fights as easy as it possibly can be, right?
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.16.2013 , 02:16 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
At present, the hardest or tightest enrage times are where Marauders/Sentinels do best, right? So how does bringing 4 of them make that fight as easy as it possibly can be?
Because you're failing to account for what I said: These are patchwerk fights. On patchwerk fights Marauders are king of the hill.

If you have a class that did the worst dps on 9/10 bosses, but on that 1 boss they did 3 times the dps of anyone else... and it just happens that boss is the tighest enrage timer, does this mean that, that one class is king of the dps? Of course not. But that's what you're saying. You're only criteria is looking at the two bosses with the highest dps checks, but if they made a boss that had a super-tight enrage timer, but would have moments where he's only damageable from 15 yards away... would you still bring Marauders because they're king of the tight dps checks? Nope. So you're argument that they do the most dps is flawed because you have to look at when they excel.

oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
05.16.2013 , 02:26 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
If you have a class that did the worst dps on 9/10 bosses, but on that 1 boss they did 3 times the dps of anyone else... and it just happens that boss is the tighest enrage timer, does this mean that, that one class is king of the dps? Of course not.
In my last post, I never said they were the king of DPS. I simply said where enrage is tightest they do best. (EDIT: They do best based on the current design of these tight enrage fights.) Given this, at every possible gear/stat level 4 Marauders/Sentinels would have the easiest time defeating these fights, right? I will assume you agree with this logic (I don't see how you can't).

Once you accept this conclusion, the question becomes are 4 Marauders/Sentinels are a liability on the other boss fights? We'll discuss this question later, but let's reach consensus on the first topic first...
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.

Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.16.2013 , 02:36 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
How can I still be flawed - that was my first post since page #1?

I am absolutely only examining the fights with the tightest enrage timers intentionally. Again, I believe the goal is to clear ALL of the content. Your ability to clear all of the fights hinges on your ability to defeat the hardest bosses, right? Thus, these represent the fights where maximum DPS is most important. In every one of these fights, the suggestion has been made that 4 Marauders/Sentinels offer the best/easiest chance of defeating the boss. And, the Top 10 on Torparse indicates that Marauders/Sentinels are best at these fights.

Thus, I posed the question if 4 Marauders/Sentinels would be a liability in the other boss fights where enrage was not as tight. I believe I outlined reasons why they are not a liability. And, I did concede that other classes will out DPS them. As you point out gearing other DPS classes is inefficient. Thus, as long as 4 Marauders/Sentinels are not a liability in the other boss fights you are best served by employing them to make defeating the hardest or tightest enrage bosses easier.

To be clear, I am not proposing any change to Bloodthirst/Inspiration. But I do feel that The_Rye_Guy and Korse are accurate that stacking 4 Marauders/Sentinels is best. Individually, they appear to do the best damage on the hardest fights. And, stacking 4 of them provides even greater damage output through successive uses of Bloodthirst/Inspiration. Further, they provide enough damage and utility to clear the rest of the bosses with relative ease. (Admittedly, some of the other bosses could be even easier with other classes.)

In summary, Marauders/Sentinels perform best on the hardest bosses, and perform at a sufficient level to kill the other bosses. Thus, the easiest way to defeat the hardest bosses and the entire raid will be with 4 Marauders/Sentinels. If you disagree with the argument/logic can you explain why?

Note: I am not saying that other DPS can not defeat the hardest bosses. And, this is a separate argument/debate from whether Bloodthirst/Inspiration is over-powered.
Lostpenguins made my argument for me. I would like to point out, that this line of argument leads into a AC (All of them) utility and player skill line. The very fact that other class's will have desirable traits in specific encounters goes to prove that there is a balance between AC. I have said it in the past, I will say it again; when it comes to choosing one class over another the end argument goes to personal preference and not imbalance, in matters of damage vs. utility.

Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
In my last post, I never said they were the king of DPS. I simply said where enrage is tightest they do best. (EDIT: They do best based on the current design of these tight enrage fights.) Given this, at every possible gear/stat level 4 Marauders/Sentinels would have the easiest time defeating these fights, right? I will assume you agree with this logic (I don't see how you can't).

Once you accept this conclusion, the question becomes are 4 Marauders/Sentinels are a liability on the other boss fights? We'll discuss this question later, but let's reach consensus on the first topic first...
............So you want to take a fight that is tailor made for a specific class, state is as an arguing point for stacking said class and then use it to justify a change to the class? Operator IX favors burst over sustained classes, nerf (change) please...........Writhing Horror and Dash'roode favor AoE classes, nerf (change) those classes............................
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
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