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Tython lovers side quest *obvious spoilers*

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Tython lovers side quest *obvious spoilers*

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.12.2013 , 05:16 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
A mature person always has better judgement.
I dunno, when I was a kid I knew some adults who were idiots.

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forcefully separate them. Simply not the Jedi way.
That's pretty much what the Masters said they would have to do. Force them to choose between renouncing their relationship and agree to not go near each other, or leave the order.

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The usual "Oh, they're monks, they know nothing about love/sex/whatever, they're just envious because their wee-wee no longer works" nonsense is wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG.
I said nothing about envy, and nothing about their parts not working. I said that there's reasons to think, based on their comments, that they were behaving in a reactionary way, and also every reason to believe that they don't have a mature outlook on relationships or even the realities of most people.

I'm actually asexual, and I know full well that I'm in no place to give advice or talk people through their romantic problems. It's a patently absurd assertion that somehow without having the necessary life experience someone becomes an expert on certain issues by virtue of what age they are.

Where the Jedi fail is that they don't provide people the tools to solve their own problems and avoid the pitfalls, they just flat out ban everything that scares them.

I can't say to the quality of the advice that the Jedi player characters might have offered in this situation, but giving people an alternative point of view that allows them to rethink things before they venture too far down the wrong path to me will always be preferable to telling someone they have to defer to authority no matter what. Following a rule without understanding a rule inevitably leads to rule breaking.

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.12.2013 , 05:37 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Callaron View Post
Hmm? That's the first I've heard of that - sure, some author somewhere probably gave one of his Jedi telepathy, but even then it'd be far from standard (if it exists at all).
Kira even fools someone into thinking she can do it at some point and then basically laughs at them for believing her and calls them an idiot.
I think most Jedi, or at least the Masters possess a form of Empathy, Yoda's "Young Skywalker is in terrible pain" comment from the movies being an example of it - but that's far from Telepathy.
On topic; I've done all of the options so far across my various alts, except telling them to stop the relationship - I'll have to explore that one if I ever make a new Knight.
They can feel that Young Skywalker is in terrible pain, but they can't tell he's flushed with hormones or that he's having un-Jedi-like feelings and engaging in un-Jedi-like behaviour?

I honestly have no idea how anyone manages to keep something like that secret in the order. You'd think that everyone around could feel if a couple was having some heightened emotions time. Which you'd think would also kinda put a damper on things, unless there's some really kinky Jedi out there.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
05.12.2013 , 08:15 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
They can feel that Young Skywalker is in terrible pain, but they can't tell he's flushed with hormones or that he's having un-Jedi-like feelings and engaging in un-Jedi-like behaviour?

I honestly have no idea how anyone manages to keep something like that secret in the order. You'd think that everyone around could feel if a couple was having some heightened emotions time. Which you'd think would also kinda put a damper on things, unless there's some really kinky Jedi out there.
The other silly thing is "Oh hey! No relationships if you want to be a Jedi. But you should totally have training if your force sensitive! You know, so you don't learn on your own...and then...kill lots of people...maybe even other Jedi...wait a minute..."
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SandsOfArrakis's Avatar


SandsOfArrakis
05.12.2013 , 08:40 PM | #24
Well on my Sage and Shadow I reported them. On my Sentinel I let them go their own way. I mean it would be quite hypocritical of me to report them while my Sentinel is having a grand time with Doc And yes earning Dark Side points along the way.
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maxetius's Avatar


maxetius
05.12.2013 , 09:49 PM | #25
They are not completely dissimilar from the Sith as they would have people believe.

Failing the trials of the Jedi Order and You basically become a lifelong prisoner of the order (force sensitive? too bad for you lol!!) serving in some menial capacity for the rest of your life, knowing you are neither good enough to be a Jedi nor allowed to make it anywhere else.


However, this can be avoided if you are
A) Already a Jedi,
B) Your master covers for you. or
C) powerful.

For B - And the Jedi Order becomes yet another good ol boys' club where WHO you know is better than WHAT you know. Case in point: Go full darkside on Tython and while you are admonished for being an epic douche, you get the job done and are promoted, much in part due to your master vouching for you.

For A and C - See: countless Jedi who have gone nuts and yet were welcomed into the order with open arms. Let's see, Tol Braga was admitted back [if you go that route] and worse of all the Jedi Master actually trIES to recruit SITH LORDS.

So basically, your chances of becoming a Jedi are better if you are a murdering Sith Lord who has a change of heart than if you are raised in the order and simply have a harder-than-average time of it.


It's a train wreck. I wish i could have told the couple that if they really wanted to be Jedi, go join the Sith and defect later, their odds were way better.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
05.12.2013 , 09:54 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by SandsOfArrakis View Post
Well on my Sage and Shadow I reported them. On my Sentinel I let them go their own way. I mean it would be quite hypocritical of me to report them while my Sentinel is having a grand time with Doc And yes earning Dark Side points along the way.
Well, she wouldn't have gotten to Doc at that point Time elapsed! She put on a year or two!
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Lodril's Avatar


Lodril
05.12.2013 , 10:14 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by jedimasterjac View Post
[COLOR="Lime"If the Jedi must protect the people, then they are more willing to protect and fight for what they love. If they can love a single person, then they will love all that that single person stands for. If they stand for the Republic and innocents, then you will fight for them, the Republic, and innocents.[/COLOR]
That is a really great encapsulation of why love and attachment are forbidden. You are absolutely right.... they are more willing to protect and fight for what they love. That right there is the exact line of thought that led to Darth Vader. Pride was a fault shared by many of the Jedi, so that wasn't the source of his fall. Anakin's anger grew directly from the things he loved, from seeing his loves endangered, and fearing for them. Every bad thing that came from Darth Vader originated with that love.

And THAT is why the only good option when dealing with force sensitives who refuse to obey the Jedi code is to kick them out and refuse to train them into the living WMDs that are Jedi knights. That, or get your own version, one dedicated to galactic civilization, to eradicate them and leave no survivors.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
05.12.2013 , 10:15 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by maxetius View Post
They are not completely dissimilar from the Sith as they would have people believe.

Failing the trials of the Jedi Order and You basically become a lifelong prisoner of the order (force sensitive? too bad for you lol!!) serving in some menial capacity for the rest of your life, knowing you are neither good enough to be a Jedi nor allowed to make it anywhere else.


However, this can be avoided if you are
A) Already a Jedi,
B) Your master covers for you. or
C) powerful.

For B - And the Jedi Order becomes yet another good ol boys' club where WHO you know is better than WHAT you know. Case in point: Go full darkside on Tython and while you are admonished for being an epic douche, you get the job done and are promoted, much in part due to your master vouching for you.

For A and C - See: countless Jedi who have gone nuts and yet were welcomed into the order with open arms. Let's see, Tol Braga was admitted back [if you go that route] and worse of all the Jedi Master actually trIES to recruit SITH LORDS.

So basically, your chances of becoming a Jedi are better if you are a murdering Sith Lord who has a change of heart than if you are raised in the order and simply have a harder-than-average time of it.


It's a train wreck. I wish i could have told the couple that if they really wanted to be Jedi, go join the Sith and defect later, their odds were way better.
Arent there force sensitives you can let go free who the Jedi Order is just moving away from Imperials (emp side quest...you can also capture them) and they dont become menial task workers for the Jedi?

What you seem to be refering to is the one Jedi Padawan who can't lift the boulder.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
05.12.2013 , 10:18 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Lodril View Post
That is a really great encapsulation of why love and attachment are forbidden. You are absolutely right.... they are more willing to protect and fight for what they love. That right there is the exact line of thought that led to Darth Vader. Pride was a fault shared by many of the Jedi, so that wasn't the source of his fall. Anakin's anger grew directly from the things he loved, from seeing his loves endangered, and fearing for them. Every bad thing that came from Darth Vader originated with that love.

And THAT is why the only good option when dealing with force sensitives who refuse to obey the Jedi code is to kick them out and refuse to train them into the living WMDs that are Jedi knights. That, or get your own version, one dedicated to galactic civilization, to eradicate them and leave no survivors.
Unless they train on their own, which some seem to have done, and become much more dangerous.

Not to mention, since they've let that rule slip from time to time, Im not sure it's always that dangerous. I think it depends on the Jedi. Basically a jerk will be a jerk. And Anakin had issues long before becoming a Padawan.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Helig's Avatar


Helig
05.13.2013 , 12:27 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
I dunno, when I was a kid I knew some adults who were idiots.
When you're a kid/teen, everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Ironically, the reverse is true in 99% of the time. Even considering the fact that *some* adults are indeed idiots, we simply cannot ignore that it's true for *most* kids/teens, as well.
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That's pretty much what the Masters said they would have to do. Force them to choose between renouncing their relationship and agree to not go near each other, or leave the order.
Eventually, yes. But how they would go on about it isn't as horrible as you're trying to present. Also, there's always the choice thing - they can always leave the Order if they consider their affair to be more important than the Jedi way of life.

Let me stress it once more. Jedi life is not for everyone. Those who join the Jedi (or stay with them) for the wrong reasons ("want superpowers", "want to fight better", "want to be a hero") usually end up reevaluating their approach in order to progress, end up leaving because it is too hard, or fall to the Dark Side.

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I said nothing about envy, and nothing about their parts not working. I said that there's reasons to think, based on their comments, that they were behaving in a reactionary way, and also every reason to believe that they don't have a mature outlook on relationships or even the realities of most people.
That's the extended variant of the "how can they know anything" argument that always pops up in this kind of discussion, and is a fallacy. Also, out of post context.

And no, you aren't looking at the greater picture. The people in question are their Padawans. They know their personalities well. They know what dangers they're exposing themselves (and everyone around them) to. Tython is not high school. Tython is a monastery. Jedi training isn't college. It's hard, spiritual work which is disrupted by such distractions - especially at the early stages of training.

Why am I so confident about this? Fictional Jedi training is based on Eastern martial arts and spiritual practices. I practice Eastern martial arts. Srs business-like. Muscles can only take you so far. Mental discipline, clean senses, fine-tuning every angle, every form of your body for optimal leverage, optimal power transition, optimal balance, both static and dynamic. It is hard work. Real hard work. Downright painful and off-putting, if approached wrong. This work cannot be done if your thoughts are occupied with your girlfriend. You either suffer through training instead of benefiting from it - and break, eventually, or you abolish distractions.
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I'm actually asexual, and I know full well that I'm in no place to give advice or talk people through their romantic problems. It's a patently absurd assertion that somehow without having the necessary life experience someone becomes an expert on certain issues by virtue of what age they are.
All that matters is how one understands themselves and other people. Unless it's technical knowledge, of course. The *technical* technical knowledge.
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Where the Jedi fail is that they don't provide people the tools to solve their own problems and avoid the pitfalls, they just flat out ban everything that scares them.
The Jedi provide all the tools needed. Discipline, meditation, training, counselling. Stand for an hour under a cold waterfall and tell me what you think of.

Fear? Hardly. Avoid pitfalls? No they don't. Both, Jedi training under a Master, and Jedi trials have a lot of pitfalls. But those pitfalls are met in a controlled environment to limit the damage. The Jedi don't "ban everything that scares them". They abolish everything that is not necessary and what distracts them from Jedi training. Training under a Master is highly personalized. The Master often chooses to test their Padawan with "forbidden" temptations - be it the Dark Side or romance. And Masters can be very crafty with this.

Jedi trials are harrowing (nothing like the fluff version that's given to us by BW). Used to be real hardcore. People got literally tortured for the Trial of Flesh. Test of discipline and will against excruciating pain that would kill a lesser person. That's being a Jedi for you.

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I can't say to the quality of the advice that the Jedi player characters might have offered in this situation, but giving people an alternative point of view that allows them to rethink things before they venture too far down the wrong path to me will always be preferable to telling someone they have to defer to authority no matter what. Following a rule without understanding a rule inevitably leads to rule breaking.
There's accepting the setting of the story, what the faction stands for and represents, and there's self-insertion of own self-experience. One of the reasons most teens are so stiff about Jedi abolishing romance. They project Jedi training on their own high school/college experience, their own desires and dreams. And that breeds countless fallacies in their view/representation of the Jedi.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie