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Stat priority/soft caps


GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
05.12.2013 , 06:33 PM | #11
The difference in energy "lost" due to alacrity is so small it is really not noticeable until you break over 10% alacrity (numbers I've seen on the pts were actually for 20% and still barely noticeable).
Cell charger definitely may be a problem, but with the amount of alacrity you can get right now, after capping accuracy, I don't think the difference is big enough to worry *yet*.

On the other hand, alacrity will help you regen faster during moments of forced downtime, making it more precious if you know when to burn (titan 6 launch phases come to mind, basically the whole dash'roode fight due to the frequent movement phases, operator 9 shielding phases, etc).

For that reason I disagree that removing alacrity completely is the right way right now. A somewhat balanced build with surge and alacrity is perfectly fine. The actual energy management issue may come back more evidently with higher stat pools (and thus new tiers of gears) where we could get alacrity high enough to actually interfere badly with cell charger (as I said, the energy loss inherent to alacrity is so small it can't really be noticed until very high amounts)
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
05.12.2013 , 11:07 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
Even without cell charger not scaling DPS mandos still utilize alacrity over surge past 250-300. Half life value for surge is 257 if memory serves me. Id need to go over my spreadsheet. But like I said having cell charger not scale is a minuscule amount of ammo lost which is easily remedied with one extra hammer shot every 45 seconds or so.
Taking alacrity over surge WILL result in a DPS increase.
You're mistaken. 2.0 changed the diminishing return scale of surge (and of jsut everything else). You wont hit any soft caps with our present BIS gear if you bring accuracy to 100%. As said, a BIS build gives you 395 points to invest into either alacrity or surge. If you go entirely into surge you’ll get 71,08% crit multiplier. That’s not close to the soft cap of around 75%.
Taking alacrity over surge will always result in a overall dps loss. Again, if your goal is ultrashort burst damage for PVP gameplay, go for it if it fits your playstyle. If you want to do operations as well, go entirely surge. Everything else kills your damage over time in any boss fight.
If you are interested in the details, you should check out Kerens Mercenary simulation spreadsheet from mmo-mechanics.com. You can run literally thousands of simulated fights with any gear you want. The numbers cleary show that no alacrity is the route to take.
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
the 9% does not make it better. it makes it close, but not better.

w/ the 9% you get .2 bonus damage per point of aim, vs .23 points of bonus damage for point of power. its not a myth.
you can trade 20 power for 2.5-3% crit. it is truly a wash statistically, so it comes down to personal preference. my personal preference is ill take the guaranteed damage increase vs the increase in RNG
I agree that it is statistically insignificant. As are most issuses we are debating here when it comes to min maxing.
I didn’t want to imply that aim gives you more bonus damage than power. Due to the bonus to crit however it will – on average - result in a higher dps. You wont see this in an actual fight, but if you simulate thousands of fights with Kerens spreadsheet you can see the difference.

Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
The difference in energy "lost" due to alacrity is so small it is really not noticeable until you break over 10% alacrity (numbers I've seen on the pts were actually for 20% and still barely noticeable).
Cell charger definitely may be a problem, but with the amount of alacrity you can get right now, after capping accuracy, I don't think the difference is big enough to worry *yet*.
Energy management is tight in PVE. Scaling alacrity will result in overall dps loss since you are forced to use rapdis shots far more often.
But more importantly, scaling alacrity means less surge (or accuracy). Thats a big hit to you dps, no way around it.

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
05.13.2013 , 10:26 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by AMightyKnight View Post
Energy management is tight in PVE. Scaling alacrity will result in overall dps loss since you are forced to use rapdis shots far more often.
But more importantly, scaling alacrity means less surge (or accuracy). Thats a big hit to you dps, no way around it.
The energy management is not THAT strict in pve. Alacrity is not going to make you suddenly go completely out of ammo unless you botch stuff up impressively (and then again, it would not be alacrity's fault).
The value of surge is also strictly related to that of crit. So far, all stuff I've seen points heavily toward crit being close to useless for commandos, with most simulations showing full power builds being slightly ahead (though ofc we are talking about tens of DPS at most).

This decreases the value of surge, while it does nothing for the value of alacrity, which does indeed increase dps and the only reason we're considering whether to take it or not is how it reacts with fixed cooldowns and issues in energy management (and again, this case is special for the commando as it's the only class that I'm aware of that has a mechanic like cell charger instead of a simple addition to the base energy regen, scoundrels and sharpshooter slingers come to mind in that regard).

Also I will repeat this: all the simulations will *not* be able to account for the regen during the fairly frequent downtimes. As much as I'd love the models to be perfect, there is very often the tendency to forget that the models are just simplifications of the real, complex nature they're trying to explain. Models are perfect to get results from a dummy fight, but the real combat situations in ops (which is what we are worried about. No matter how hard we try, we won't defeat the dummy) are different and must be taken into account.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
05.13.2013 , 10:36 AM | #14
surge is still useful. even with no additional crit rating in your build, you are going to have ~20% crit. which means you are still going to see a fair number of crits. you want to take as much surge as you can so that when you do crit, you hit like a freight train.

alacrity in your gear does not scale well enough to take. you need 400-500 alacrity to get the GCD down just .3s, and that is in conjunction with the alacrity we can get from talents.

would you rather have 400 Surge, which puts you at ~73% surge rating (meaning your crits will hit 23% harder) or 400 alacrity, which means you get 4 GCDs for every normal 3 GCDs. now i have no actual numbers to back this up, but im pretty sure youre going to see greater DPS with the Surge than with the Alacrity.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
05.13.2013 , 11:30 AM | #15
@GeckOBac
Nothing we discuss here is THAT severe. As things are now one could probably clear S&V HC with a full crit/alacrity Commando. It just doesn’t matter much what you do. However if you want to get the max achievable DPS out of your Commando, some things work and some don’t. As said, I agree that it doesn’t matter much and you wont ruin your char if have some alacrity gear. Its just not the optimal solution.
The value of surge is strictly related to crit. However, as things are now, if you invest zero points in crit, surge is still better than alacrity.
I have no idea how alacrity works with other classes. I only raid with Commandos, other classes might very well be able to use alacrity effectively.
Regarding downtime: You shouldn’t need it in the first place. If you need every second of the down time to regen your energy you have big issues with your energy management. And every downtime which is longer than a couple of second will make alacrity completely irrelevant.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
05.14.2013 , 11:58 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
the 9% does not make it better. it makes it close, but not better.

w/ the 9% you get .2 bonus damage per point of aim, vs .23 points of bonus damage for point of power. its not a myth.

you can trade 20 power for 2.5-3% crit. it is truly a wash statistically, so it comes down to personal preference. my personal preference is ill take the guaranteed damage increase vs the increase in RNG
No those are the numbers before the 9% aim bonus. After the aim bonus, and sage buff, you're getting .228 bonus damage per point of aim. So you're trading 2.5-3% crit for less than one bonus damage.

Looking purely at augments, you can now get 448 Aim or 448 power from augments. If you augment power this will be an increase of 103.04 Bonus Damage. If you augment aim this will be an increase of 102.144 Bonus Damage.

20 Bonus damage vs 2.5% Crit may be a wash. 0.896 Bonus damage vs 2.5% crit is an obvious choice.

Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
Wrong. Alacrity is great for a gunnary commando and anything over 300 surge is just wasted. Never ever ever ever stack surge higher than 300 rating after 2.0
So the only other stat to put that budget into is alacrity.

You have any math to back that up? 300 no longer gets us to the softcap any more really. Moreover, even if you were getting much less of an increase adding points of surge over the points you were adding before, that doesn't necessarily mean you are getting less of a DPS increase than an equivalent amount of alacrity. You may know that but frankly your claim came with absolutely no backup whatsoever.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
05.15.2013 , 06:43 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by AMightyKnight View Post
The value of surge is strictly related to crit. However, as things are now, if you invest zero points in crit, surge is still better than alacrity.
I'd like to see some math supporting this cause it doesn't seem accurate (but I may ofc be wrong)

Quote:
Regarding downtime: You shouldn’t need it in the first place. If you need every second of the down time to regen your energy you have big issues with your energy management. And every downtime which is longer than a couple of second will make alacrity completely irrelevant.
Nope you don't need it, but that's not what I meant: I said that with the frequent downtimes you can exploit the slight boost in regen due to alacrity to burn harder before a known downtime, as the added regen will make it easier to recover even from the lower tiers of regeneration.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
05.15.2013 , 10:44 AM | #18
I find the regen we should already be getting combined with the downtimes you are talking about are more than sufficient to come back from lower tier regen rates in both those fights and once you start the next cycle at full ammo, any additional regen is wasted.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
05.15.2013 , 10:58 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
I'd like to see some math supporting this cause it doesn't seem accurate (but I may ofc be wrong)
I'm not much into math, i'm repeating what other who like that sort fo thing wrote about the hole thing.
But download KErens Spreadsheet and run the numbers yourself if you are interested.


Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
Nope you don't need it, but that's not what I meant: I said that with the frequent downtimes you can exploit the slight boost in regen due to alacrity to burn harder before a known downtime, as the added regen will make it easier to recover even from the lower tiers of regeneration.
Whats a frequent downtime to you? If i look at S&V i see no good opportunities for alacrity. First Boss has no downtime when youre not beamed into the desert. And if it happens to you the effective downtime is so long it doesnt matter if you have alacrity or not.
The same goes for the second boss. There are frequent downtimes but they are so long you can sit behind the rocks completely empty and you would still regenerate more than enough to continue the fight.
Third Boss has no downtime the way we play it. The snipers on the wall are killed by our two Sentinels. Dito fourth boss. The Fifth Boss has downtime, especially in the last phase. The sixth boss has no downtime. Just straight up dps. And the final boss has no siginifcant downtime that would be short enough for alacrity to matter.

You probably have more downtime in TFB HC, but to be honest, the DPS requirement is so loughable, you could clear it with crit and alacrity for sure.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
05.15.2013 , 12:59 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
No those are the numbers before the 9% aim bonus. After the aim bonus, and sage buff, you're getting .228 bonus damage per point of aim. So you're trading 2.5-3% crit for less than one bonus damage.

Looking purely at augments, you can now get 448 Aim or 448 power from augments. If you augment power this will be an increase of 103.04 Bonus Damage. If you augment aim this will be an increase of 102.144 Bonus Damage.

20 Bonus damage vs 2.5% Crit may be a wash. 0.896 Bonus damage vs 2.5% crit is an obvious choice.
with all 4 buffs, ive got 2309 aim, which gives 461.7 bonus damage. 461.7/2309 =.2

i dont think the 9% changes the amount of bonus damage per point of aim; its locked in at .2
however, the 9% talent and 5% buff change the amount each aug gives. so 32 aim is actually 32*1.14 = 36.48 which is 36.48*.2 = 7.296 bonus damage per aug. 14 augs = 102.14
vs overkill which gives 32*.23 = 7.36 bonus damage per aug. 14 augs = 103.04

basically the same i guess, like you said. hmm, seems i have wasted a significant amount of creds. bummer lol

edit: durr i did different math but got the same numbers as you rofl
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads