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What's your stance on abusing boss mechanics?


Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.09.2013 , 08:18 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I thought adds spawned based on his life percentage, not based on how long it takes to kill him?
I've had 4 sets of adds spawn once. Every other time it's either 2 or 3 sets of adds.
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DarthFamine's Avatar


DarthFamine
05.09.2013 , 09:25 AM | #12
it's not an exploit, it's using the environment to your advantage.
no different than taking cover behind something if you are getting shot at.
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Xiij's Avatar


Xiij
05.09.2013 , 09:53 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kacynski View Post
I am talking mostly about Cademimu and Mando Raiders here, as they have bosses that can be easily abused.

I Cademimu both the Wookie and the bonus boss can be outmaneuvered and if you position yourself correctly their main mechanics (adds and aoe pull) will be neglected. In Mando Raiders the bonus boss can be made completely helpless by correct positioning.

I do really feel that this is exploiting the game mechanics and I don't like it. Although I do know what could be done to make these fights a cheesy cakewalk, I will not tell the group, but most of the people know anyway at this point and will insist to abuse/exploit.

What's your stance to it? Will you propose these exploits yourself to make the run go quicker? Will you just follow the group? Or will you insist to do the fights the "right" way?
As I'll mention below (in response to other replies), I don't think this would be considered abusing boss mechanics, nor should it be prevented. I also feel as though the dev's also feel this way about some of these items as they have not been fixed. Something that would be an abuse (which has been fixed) was the sarlacc pit in SV to kill thresher.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The "abuse" mechanic on the Wookiee is standing pulling him out from under the ship (generally by hiding either the cargo boxes or the elevator to LoS pull him). The adds won't follow him if you get him far enough away from the ship, so you don't have to deal with the soft enrage derived from having a bazillion remarkably durable ugnaughts beating down upon you. You still have to kill said adds to get out of combat, but it makes the fight easier if you don't have enough DPS to kill him before the third or fourth set of adds spawn. It takes longer though because, after beating him down, you have to go and kill the mass of super durable adds manually instead of just having them die from the boss's death throes.
This isn't the worst one, there is a place you can stand (if you have ranged dps) where the boss just stands there. The ugnaughts gather around him and die when he explodes.

Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post
Clever use of your surroundings and the weaknesses of your adversary(s) have been staples of RPGs since the genre came into being. One of the most engaging and fun aspects of tabletop RPGs is for players to come up with solutions to encounters that the Game Master (GM) did not anticipate. And a good GM rewards the players for their cleverness, but also learns from the experience.

These so called "abuses" of boss mechanics in MMOs are no different. The developers are the GMs - they have created an encounter that the players need to overcome. Somewhere along the line a group of players, whether by accident or on purpose, use their surroundings or "exploit" a weakness making the encounter easier than the developers intended. And then that "strategy" is propagated to all who play the game. The "reward" is that those who use it save time.
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthFamine View Post
it's not an exploit, it's using the environment to your advantage.
no different than taking cover behind something if you are getting shot at.
As both of these people point out, these are just clever uses of environment, not an exploit or abuse.

All said and done, dev's may go back and change the ability to do these things in the future. However, supplemental discipline would not be warranted due to the fact that players are not breaking the game (hacking) to make these fights easier. Trivializing a fight using your environment is just smart playing.
Quote: Originally Posted by Xiij View Post
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Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.09.2013 , 10:18 AM | #14
It's funny that when people exploit mobs it's clever use of environment, but when a mob shoots you through solid wall that you cannot hit through which they are actually perfectly capable of doing, like say HK-47 often does in Foundry, people complain that's a bug.

I think the flamethrower still does significant damage to the adds on hard mode, because I saw the adds die quite a few times while we're making no attempt to AE them before the unstable fuel. The adds have 80K HP a piece so it's pretty much impossible to kill them with just AEs anyway as if you can do that kind of AE damage, you'd be able to AE every trash pack in the game in hard FP.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
05.09.2013 , 11:37 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
It's funny that when people exploit mobs it's clever use of environment, but when a mob shoots you through solid wall that you cannot hit through which they are actually perfectly capable of doing, like say HK-47 often does in Foundry, people complain that's a bug.
Bad analogy. If through using the environment a player discovers that they can attack a mob and the mob cannot attack him/her then that is an exploit/bug and needs to be fixed. Dragging a mob far away from its spawn point so that the adds that spawn at that same point take longer to engage the group and/or backing yourself against a wall so that a mob's knockback does not affect you as much is clever use of your surroundings and does not need to be fixed.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
05.09.2013 , 02:05 PM | #16
I hate it, and generally object to doing the fights in any way other than executing the mechanics as designed. Because what happens then is people get so used to the exploit, they forget how to do the fight correctly, and the fight has to be nerfed into oblivion.

Plus, none of the HM FPs are really that hard to begin with.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
05.09.2013 , 02:09 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I thought adds spawned based on his life percentage, not based on how long it takes to kill him?
I don't have fraps to confirm this, but I am almost positive you are correct and that they spawn based on his life. At least what we did before we got geared is DPS the boss until the second set of adds came, then DPS only the adds until they all died. No more adds come during that time. Once all the adds are dead, and the healer has energy, we resumed DPSing the boss and kept on him until he died, ignoring the adds that spawn at that point.

Xiij's Avatar


Xiij
05.09.2013 , 02:18 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
I don't have fraps to confirm this, but I am almost positive you are correct and that they spawn based on his life. At least what we did before we got geared is DPS the boss until the second set of adds came, then DPS only the adds until they all died. No more adds come during that time. Once all the adds are dead, and the healer has energy, we resumed DPSing the boss and kept on him until he died, ignoring the adds that spawn at that point.
Not sure about that. Could be a hybrid trigger, though I'm not sure they have those in this game. I've definitely seen way more than 4 groups before. So maybe there is a timer which spawns and resets every certain amount of hp?
Quote: Originally Posted by Xiij View Post
[W]e really shouldn't feed trolls. They are like stray cats. Once you feed them once they come back. When you continue to feed them, they grow in numbers.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.09.2013 , 02:25 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
I don't have fraps to confirm this, but I am almost positive you are correct and that they spawn based on his life. At least what we did before we got geared is DPS the boss until the second set of adds came, then DPS only the adds until they all died. No more adds come during that time. Once all the adds are dead, and the healer has energy, we resumed DPSing the boss and kept on him until he died, ignoring the adds that spawn at that point.
I've straight up burned the boss down and only 2 packs of adds spawned. I've only seen the "full" 4 packs one time, when the group had absolutely terrible DPS. It's not based on life. If it were, the same number of packs would spawn every time.
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RandomXChance's Avatar


RandomXChance
05.09.2013 , 04:13 PM | #20
I do not mind them in a general sense. What I do not like is when people insist on doing some that are really not worth the hassle.

The one on Athiss with the Beast of Vodal Kresh where you drag him down to the "lake" so the adds do not come to you is one of those. The adds die quick and it is a pain to drag him down there and sometimes he evades. So not worth it.