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Peculiar Resilience/Force Shroud Bug (attn bioware)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Bug Reports
Peculiar Resilience/Force Shroud Bug (attn bioware)
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CharlieBrown's Avatar


CharlieBrown
06.24.2013 , 06:48 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by IronmanSS View Post
Math Gurus rejoice!!!

Force Shroud 's inner workings can now be summed up in this equation:

[(Your current resistance) + (200%)] - (whatever gets back you to 95%) = 95%

"TY 4 teh good maths BW!"

Yay, Tank Sins depending (even more) on RNG for survival. Time 2 reroll guys. I'd tell you to respec DPS, but...

Sins/Shadows = 3 sub-par NiM PvE specs.
Don't worry! My Jugg just hit level 20 today. Double XP weekends are secretly their tactic to keep Sin tanks happy by letting them reroll a JK AC in time for Nightmare S&V!
Fiera MainAssassin Tank
<E> Guild Prophecy of the Five

IronmanSS's Avatar


IronmanSS
06.24.2013 , 07:21 PM | #42
A look into a typical BW Sin Balance session:

Group: Top DPS Assassins seem to be coming up about 300 DPS short of what's required for these upcoming NiMs that we have on deck, what should we do boss?

AP: Well, more people play L50 FPs than Ops anyway, so we always balance around those. The metrics seem to show that in L50 FPs that these Sins are firing off their Discharge before it hits 3 stacks... maybe we'll make them glow at 3 stacks or something, those n00bs should pick up about 300 DPS right there - L2P.


Group: What about Madness?

AP: Who wants to play a gimped melee Sorc? Metrics show that no one plays Madness anymore. Next.


Group: Ok, well the Top Tank Assassins are saying that they're too spikey, that they have less DR than the other Tanks, and just want to be brought in line with the other tanks overall.

AP: Again, the metrics clearly show that in L50 FPs these Sin Tanks are dying because they let Dark Ward fall off or don't even use it. Heck, half of em just turned on Dark Charge and didn't even respec. L2P issue as usual. Maybe we could recycle that glowy idea from before, it would save us some time so we can raid more tonight. Maybe we can try that NiM Withering Horror fight that we... I mean the internal testing team is having so much trouble with.


Group: Well we still haven't beaten HM S&V, our tanks keep dying and we can't come up with the DPS to down Styrak.

AP: I'll see if I can sneak Jesse and myself, I mean Jugg & Snipers some more buffs in the next patch.
Sulvira - Sith Assassin <E>

Ilith's Avatar


Ilith
06.24.2013 , 08:29 PM | #43
This thread has been truly eye-opening and explains what I've been seeing with my tank-specced Assassin as well as the tank Shadows I raid with pub side. Maybe I could go stack Endurance gear in the hopes of surviving some of these 30k+ hits... but that just makes my mitigation worse.

I honestly don't see the point of having bosses that inflict one-shots on one specific tank class. How does that constitute enjoyable gameplay? I just don't see it. Maybe BW can check their metrics of tank Sins/Shadows who quit or reroll after being one-shot in raids a certain number of times.

My server is short of tanks for raid content in general, now I understand why: the Sins and Shadows quit.
"Just so you Jedi know, the whole 'cryptic' routine isn't mysterious, it's just irritating. If you really can see the future, you should be at the pazaak table." - Atton Rand

LoRdTyRANTz's Avatar


LoRdTyRANTz
06.25.2013 , 12:32 AM | #44
All the complaining about sins/shadows since 2.0 it's no wonder the devs are making our roles harder than other classes. I bet they're all secretly laughing their ***** off as you all whine and complain. Hilarious really

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
06.25.2013 , 03:39 AM | #45
Well, props to him for actually responding, but minus several billion to the whole dev team that thinks the way to make these events more challenging is to dump even more on the tanks that have already been made the weakest by your changes in 2.0.

Make Jesse Sky reroll a Shadow and let him see the "fun" for himself...

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
06.25.2013 , 10:04 AM | #46
RIP Shadow tanks. Mine will retire today and I wish I could say cancelling my sub would make a difference but the cartel market suckers give them tenfold the money back. I let my playtime run out and adieux.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.25.2013 , 10:25 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidDemaree View Post
In the following particular instances, it is not a bug:

In Nightmare Mode, Huge Grenade does in fact deal weapon damage (rather than the spell damage it deals in Story and Hard Modes). This was an intentional change for Nightmare Mode, done to make the encounter more challenging.
What you have done is guarantee that no guild will take a shadow tank to that encounter. When Huge Grenade hits for enough to evaporate 95% of a shadow's health and only 60-70% of a guardian, that demonstrates an unacceptable liability in a progression situation. Resilience made this encounter doable as a shadow. Even Sky has referenced Resilience as the justification for spike damage and shadow tanks.

Quote: Originally Posted by DavidDemaree View Post
As for Terminate, it has always been a weapon damage attack in any difficulty mode that it appears, and it would have never worked to Force Shroud it - any such luck to the contrary is a mere coincidence (though probably not uncommon).
This is correct, and I verified this a few weeks ago in my logs. The fact that Sky claimed Resilience was the reason he felt shadows were fine wrt Terminate wasn't exactly illuminating.

Quote: Originally Posted by DavidDemaree View Post
In other instances while Force Shroud is active and you know that you are being hit by a tech or Force attack, the issue is most likely that players and NPCs always have at least a 5% chance to hit with any ability, regardless of how high your defense is to that type of ability. So while Force Shroud is active, there is always at least a 5% chance that you could be hit by any tech or Force attack.
Shadow case: 4% base resist + 200% resilience - 5% hit chance = 199% resist chance.

Math much?

I'm sorry if that sounds curt, but seriously. The two roll system in TOR has been well understood for over a year now. We know how dodge is rolled against accuracy. You cannot tell me that NPCs are simply hitting through the resilience resist chance. Something else is going on. I'll admit that I assumed it was hit chance when I first saw the bug, but the math just doesn't line up. You have a bug in the combat roll routine. It's as simple as that.

The other option is that force accuracy is rolled against resist in a different fashion from weapon accuracy. If that were true though, then all force/tech heavy classes with 110% force/tech accuracy would be seeing a *lot* of misses in their logs. That just doesn't happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by DavidDemaree View Post
I don't like this anymore than you do. I know it's extremely frustrating to be hit by an ability that, for all intents and purposes, should not have hit you. Unfortunately, fixing this issue is not as simple as it seems, but I'll take a deeper look to see if there is anything we can do about it.
It's a very serious balance problem. Shadows are already handicapped by well-documented and provable spikiness issues. What you're saying is that their only guaranteed defensive CD isn't guaranteed *by design*. This is about the point where I have to throw up my hands in disbelief. I don't know what model you're using to balance tanks, but it is apparently not a very comprehensive one.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
06.25.2013 , 10:31 AM | #48
Well said.
Cersei Operative 60 Opness Scoundrel 60
Quabiedney Juggernaut 60 Capt-corelli Guardian 60
Martyn PT tank 60 TouchMyBehind Marauder 60
Big In Japan

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
06.25.2013 , 11:16 AM | #49
Keeping me 6h and 45 mins on hold to fix my account after you cancelled it, got me really pissed, but what I see about the shadow tank makes me even more pissed. The community has done the work for you while you keep allocating resources to buff guardians we have done the work you are supposedly paid for to bring class balancing. Open your eyes, read the forums, KBN, dipstik, Kitru, are doing your jobs for you. Wake the F UP!

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
06.25.2013 , 05:39 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
Keeping me 6h and 45 mins on hold to fix my account after you cancelled it, got me really pissed, but what I see about the shadow tank makes me even more pissed. The community has done the work for you while you keep allocating resources to buff guardians we have done the work you are supposedly paid for to bring class balancing. Open your eyes, read the forums, KBN, dipstik, Kitru, are doing your jobs for you. Wake the F UP!
lol now now cranky pants :P
Cersei Operative 60 Opness Scoundrel 60
Quabiedney Juggernaut 60 Capt-corelli Guardian 60
Martyn PT tank 60 TouchMyBehind Marauder 60
Big In Japan