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The weird people you meet in Group Finder.


Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
07.02.2013 , 06:01 PM | #431
Quote: Originally Posted by artikulieren View Post
I am firmly against it. Great to have in PvP, but so situational that even if you spec into it. You shouldn't be using it every single cooldown you get. Especially not if it entails knocking mobs out of melee DPS range or worse yet, out of AoE diameter/range. If you truly wanted to heal, you could drop a puddle or if you wanted to AoE, use Force Storm.

At low levels, it doesn't even heal for anything worth a crap. 1200 is the number I gave looking at my partial 69 geared Sorc. If DPS are taking so much damage that they need a sub-1k, heck even a sub-500 hp heal. They're gonna die any way, and your tank is either dead or really bad.


.
healed for about 500ish per person on my early 30ties sage and was invaluable with certain groups when I needed a quick pick me up and yes it was enough to give me a cushion to keep them alive. people underestimate how much of a difference those few points of health can make. I also tend to like to keep people topped off as much as possible... because again, in my experience it can make a difference.

most bosses cannot be knocked back anyways, and sometimes things need to be knocked back because a lot of tanks/dps like to tunnel vision. I've also used it in OPS, most recent I can think of was Dash'roode, while moving between shielded areas, it wasn't much, but it was better than nothing. and no, i never use it for damage. I do use it more when soloing then when in groups, I'll give you that.

Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
At least for sages/sorcs, this is just wrong. Here is the PvE heal spec that I use:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#60...rGhkZbc0MZoM.3

The only "optional" point I had to allocate to unlock salvation is in Humility, which because I stun things regularly, is quite useful. Everything else in the Seer tree should be required, as is the 7 points in TK, and at least 2 points in the balance tree for Will of the Jedi. You could make a case for Egress on certain fights (General Ortol, Dash'Roode HM). But the knockback heal is both unnecessary and actively harmful in the vast majority of cases in PvE.

At low levels, I could /maybe/ see taking it since your AoE healing options are pretty limited, and would be a bit more useful while soloing. But it could also be the start of a very bad habit.
see that 8% healing received? I'm not so sure about that. so it was that or the wave doing the heals, and to me that seemed like a better choice, when used carefully. a lot of things can be starts of bad habits, doesn't mean they are useless.

and at early levels you have NO AoE healing options other than your knockback. I always crack up when people claim that sorcs are primarily AoE healers. I'm sorry, but stationary piddle paddle as powerful as it is, is but one ability that often doesn't even have a chance to heal for the duration as people have to move..

now. its all personal preference in the end. I just disagree that just because you have seen this ability to be useless, it always is.

I've seen assassin/shadow tanks start with that knockback and I always wondered, why the heck do that do that? it just seems to scatter mobs all over the place, makes it harder to hold threat (in cases when they are ranged and don't come back to clamp up) and is in general annoying. so I asked a guildy who is also a sin tank. well... turns out that when used/timed properly - its a fantastic ability to GATHER the mobs together. go figure.

P.S. about colicoids. I see. I was a pretty slow leveler back then and while i did group, I never did that particular flashpoint until after the nerf. good to know that at least there's a basis to that strat.

artikulieren's Avatar


artikulieren
07.03.2013 , 01:40 AM | #432
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
healed for about 500ish per person on my early 30ties sage and was invaluable with certain groups when I needed a quick pick me up and yes it was enough to give me a cushion to keep them alive. people underestimate how much of a difference those few points of health can make. I also tend to like to keep people topped off as much as possible... because again, in my experience it can make a difference.
Now I never claimed it wouldn't make a difference. I was just living in my fantasy that in an ideal world with a good group(rare, but happens every now and then), that wouldn't be necessary. DPS would know to take down weakest to strongest, and tank would maintain aggro on all but the weakest of trash thereby limiting the damage DPS would take allowing healers to focus solely on the tanks.

What I am getting at though. Is that aside from a few choice scenarios. having to rely on a KB AoE for healing, though free is ludicrous. You mentioned bosses somewhere in the post, healers shouldn't even be in range of most bosses.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I've seen assassin/shadow tanks start with that knockback
That is one of my pet peeves. Again, aside from times when they are corralling enemies for the slaughter(big droid in Mandalorian Raiders gets knocked against the lift where 3 more droids spawn/pushing enemies off an edge). It is a move wholly uncalled for in 90% of flashpoints and serves only to aggravate your DPS. It is the mark of either an inexperienced player, a troll or someone who is just plain stupid. I've met people who are slow in this game, and even they don't make mistakes more than twice.

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
07.03.2013 , 03:26 AM | #433
Quote: Originally Posted by artikulieren View Post
Now I never claimed it wouldn't make a difference. I was just living in my fantasy that in an ideal world with a good group(rare, but happens every now and then), that wouldn't be necessary. DPS would know to take down weakest to strongest, and tank would maintain aggro on all but the weakest of trash thereby limiting the damage DPS would take allowing healers to focus solely on the tanks.

What I am getting at though. Is that aside from a few choice scenarios. having to rely on a KB AoE for healing, though free is ludicrous. You mentioned bosses somewhere in the post, healers shouldn't even be in range of most bosses.
there are situations when you stack on a boss. there are situations when you are nowhere near boss OR adds, but you are stacking with ranged dps - I can drop reviv on melee, use force wave on the ranged. ability IS situational and i don't use it often (and almost never in flashpoints, most often when my group is at 97% and I want a quick cheap topoff as we're moving along - I have this thing where I want my group to be at max health as much as possible, keeps the flashpoint running faster, since the only time they have to stop to recharge then is when they mismanaged their resources), but it still seems like a better choice then just 8% more healing received. which are the 2 options you have. and you have to pick one. might as well pick a situational ability IMO.

my assumption is that even with friends, ideal situation will not happen. because I'm a human being playing with other human beings and we are all fallible. even the best players make errors sometimes. I don't have to worry about the best case scenario, only the worst.

Quote:
That is one of my pet peeves. Again, aside from times when they are corralling enemies for the slaughter(big droid in Mandalorian Raiders gets knocked against the lift where 3 more droids spawn/pushing enemies off an edge). It is a move wholly uncalled for in 90% of flashpoints and serves only to aggravate your DPS. It is the mark of either an inexperienced player, a troll or someone who is just plain stupid. I've met people who are slow in this game, and even they don't make mistakes more than twice.
majority of the time I've seen it used in pugs, I was just as aggravated. but I still couldn't dismiss it out of hand so I asked and well... people are still often using it wrong, but i now know that it can be used the right way, in adition to knocking mobs of the ledges.

AAAAzrael's Avatar


AAAAzrael
07.03.2013 , 05:34 AM | #434
My main is shadow tank and I use the knockback quite often in FP's and sometimes in operations as well. I think I am decently skilled in tanking both in FP's and ops. Tanked current HM ops for both my guild and as guest for some good raiding guilds on my server. I do not think I am an idiot.
It's very situational, and admittedly can cause problems for mDPS. I won't be going into obvious like knocking enemies off the bridges etc.

Situations when it can be used:
1. Pushing enemies together, especially towards a barrel, pipe that can be broken, near the ledge where commando/gunslinger can knock them off.
2. At the start of the combat with large trash packs - to push them all into the wall = near to each other, also to get initial aggro on every single one of them to make sure they won't immediately run for the healers. I use it especially during quick runs when AOE taunt is on cooldown and sometimes even slow time is on cooldown and I cannot be sure I will aggro on all of them immediately. Also it's a cheap and easy AOE stun. If you can AOE the group down very quickly after that incoming damage is 0!!!!! I also use force stun and whirling kick on cooldown in trash fight situation for the same reason - to reduce incoming damage.
3. During large trash pack encounter when you are close to dying and enemies are melee. When I see healer is getting overwhelmed and I don't have a cooldown ready I will use knockback instead of dying - I step couple of steps back to have all enemies in front of me and do the knockback, the time they are flying away and running back helps the healer and I may be able to use it to get some healing from TkT or something similar.
4. Tiny bit of AOE damage is needed. I use the skill very often in 1st phase of HM TFB. I am tanking the tentacle and I see the add coming close. I already used slow time and force breach and the add got hit by them and I see it's close to dying. I use the knockback, which won't knock anything back of course, and it dies. If it doesn't then I proceed to step away from the tentacle using force pull to keep aggro and spaming one more series of force breach and slow time on the add. Once we lost the rDPS and we managed to get it down with the healer while I was kiting it and tanking the tentacle.

Those are typical scenarios. I wouldn't consider them scenarios that could be come up with by retarded players...

Nkya's Avatar


Nkya
07.03.2013 , 07:15 AM | #435
I met once a DPS sage using the knowback in his regular rotation. He justified it provided a healing, albeit we didn't really need extra heal and we had a working dedicated healer by the way. He stopped when being told to avoid. I don't think its regular cast is really an issue playing solo, along with a healer or even with a ranged dps, but it's too much a bother in other cases.

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
07.03.2013 , 07:35 AM | #436
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I've seen assassin/shadow tanks start with that knockback and I always wondered, why the heck do that do that? it just seems to scatter mobs all over the place, makes it harder to hold threat (in cases when they are ranged and don't come back to clamp up) and is in general annoying. so I asked a guildy who is also a sin tank. well... turns out that when used/timed properly - its a fantastic ability to GATHER the mobs together. go figure.
Speaking as someone whose first and (just about, still) main character is a Shadow Tank, that levelled all the way as tank spec from early access, this is only valid till you get Force Breach (level 12!) and after that is a completely counter-productive. And I hate running with healers that use this move (or the Commando/Mercenary version of the same). (EDIT:Corrected PT for Merc).

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
07.03.2013 , 07:38 AM | #437
Ancaglon:you ment mercenary, PT doesnt have KB
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
07.03.2013 , 10:13 AM | #438
Quote: Originally Posted by Nkya View Post
I met once a DPS sage using the knowback in his regular rotation. He justified it provided a healing, albeit we didn't really need extra heal and we had a working dedicated healer by the way. He stopped when being told to avoid. I don't think its regular cast is really an issue playing solo, along with a healer or even with a ranged dps, but it's too much a bother in other cases.
well... that's just... ok, I end up speccing into it as a healer because I need to put those points somewhere, to get talents I actually need, but for dps sage its not needed at all, and I mean at all :/ I mean.. i could probably see its value in solo leveling spec, but not in groups.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ancaglon View Post
Speaking as someone whose first and (just about, still) main character is a Shadow Tank, that levelled all the way as tank spec from early access, this is only valid till you get Force Breach (level 12!) and after that is a completely counter-productive. And I hate running with healers that use this move (or the Commando/Powertech version of the same).
that's what I used to think, but post above explains the applications of the move. as for healer, who sometimes uses knockback in flashpoint as actual knockback, and not for healing... if I didn't have things chewing on me, I wouldn't need to use it in a first place (not saying its a tank fault specifically, but if I pull aggro as a healer, it's usually because no one else is touching those particular mobs, and no dumping guard on me won't fix it >_>). that or there are many cases where group would rather knock things off the ledge to their deaths and knockback is specifically requested.

artikulieren's Avatar


artikulieren
07.03.2013 , 10:17 AM | #439
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
my assumption is that even with friends, ideal situation will not happen. because I'm a human being playing with other human beings and we are all fallible. even the best players make errors sometimes. I don't have to worry about the best case scenario, only the worst.
Your assumption is wrong then. The thread title is about Group Finder, and random rolls come into play. But if you are talking about a fixed scenario, running with the people I trust and know. While they(or I) do make errors sometimes, they are easily remedied because everyone is good, flexible and alert.

All my trusted Sage/Sorc healers, while they may spec into the healing KB, they NEVER use it in flashpoints. You might see them do it occasionally in an op or very often in a WZ. But they know it causes more harm than good in an FP.

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
07.03.2013 , 10:30 AM | #440
Quote: Originally Posted by Nkya View Post
I met once a DPS sage using the knowback in his regular rotation. He justified it provided a healing, albeit we didn't really need extra heal and we had a working dedicated healer by the way. He stopped when being told to avoid. I don't think its regular cast is really an issue playing solo, along with a healer or even with a ranged dps, but it's too much a bother in other cases.
argghh... I hate assassins dps that do that knockback when I'm tanking. I sometimes would charge on that mob that's kinda alone and push him toward the rest of the pack, so when I have them all neatly packed together for both effective aoe and aggro control, bummmm ! knockback ! W T F