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The weird people you meet in Group Finder.


Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
08.12.2014 , 10:27 AM | #4351
Quote: Originally Posted by Elusive_Thing View Post
Only pull I've LoS'd there is the boarding party boss. It makes things a lot easier and usually substantially faster as well.
Maybe if you have a couple of aoe specs. Like a smasher and an APt. Ive never bothered doing it myself. If you leap or stealth in and attack the sorc/sage, those three wont move, ever. Even then they are still very grouped up, and stay that way as long as no one gets push happy (noob assassins...).

Most of the time that Ive done Mando as a dps and we have a tank who insists on LoSing, it just results in an initial aggro snafu after which you have the tank with the three tankable npcs in a little bunch and the warrior jumping around pushing people. Which is exactly the same situation you would have by just leaping/stealthing in, it just takes longer and gives the healer something extra to do for a few seconds.

KarathAnno's Avatar


KarathAnno
08.12.2014 , 11:24 AM | #4352
Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
Why would anyone LOS the dog pull right before the first boss in Mando Raiders? All of the dogs are melee; they'll jump right to the tank when he starts the pull by attacking the single humanoid target in the middle, so there's no positioning that needs to be done. LOS means "line of sight" and is only used to force ranged enemies to group together, it has absolutely no benefit when facing melee targets.
I've recently started to LoS that pull and a few of the other dog ones in Mando. I've found that with Merc and Op healers that if their HoT or Kolto Shell ticks right after I attack the guy in the middle the dogs will sometimes leap over me and hit the healer in the back.

It does not happen every pull or even most but it has happened to me enough that it is something I now watch for. Where as if I LoS it I can Smash the dogs as they come around the corner before they have another target to leap to.

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
08.12.2014 , 11:35 AM | #4353
Quote: Originally Posted by KarathAnno View Post
I've recently started to LoS that pull and a few of the other dog ones in Mando. I've found that with Merc and Op healers that if their HoT or Kolto Shell ticks right after I attack the guy in the middle the dogs will sometimes leap over me and hit the healer in the back.

It does not happen every pull or even most but it has happened to me enough that it is something I now watch for. Where as if I LoS it I can Smash the dogs as they come around the corner before they have another target to leap to.
I've never had that happen to me in all the time I've done this FP with Operative and Merc healers. If you AoE taunt immediately after the dogs first jump to you, and then keep Smashing and doing other AoE attacks, it shouldn't be an issue. It sounds to me like yours might be an issue of timing, that you aren't using your AoE soon enough. Obviously, it's more challenging on a Juggernaut tank than an Assassin or Powertech. When I Sin tank it, I open with Wither and Discharge (both AoE abilities) and then AoE taunt for good measure.

Prototypemind's Avatar


Prototypemind
08.12.2014 , 11:41 AM | #4354
Quote: Originally Posted by KarathAnno View Post
I've recently started to LoS that pull and a few of the other dog ones in Mando. I've found that with Merc and Op healers that if their HoT or Kolto Shell ticks right after I attack the guy in the middle the dogs will sometimes leap over me and hit the healer in the back.

It does not happen every pull or even most but it has happened to me enough that it is something I now watch for. Where as if I LoS it I can Smash the dogs as they come around the corner before they have another target to leap to.
Nevermind, I see this is referring to the pack just before the boss. LoS is definitely viable when the group isn't quite geared enough to burn everything down before heals become an issue, and even when they are it just makes things easier. Nothing wrong with handling it that way.

CheaterLL's Avatar


CheaterLL
08.12.2014 , 11:45 AM | #4355
Quote: Originally Posted by Prototypemind View Post
The dogs have a random aggro table and will attack whomever they want. The tank's job is to keep the boss occupied and away from the group while this is happening.
The Trash pull BEFORE the boss is what they're talking about.
CheaterLL, GM <you always wipe together>
Semi-Progression @ T3-M4
Juggernaut Tank/Sniper DPS/Sorcerer Heal

KarathAnno's Avatar


KarathAnno
08.12.2014 , 11:56 AM | #4356
Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
I've never had that happen to me in all the time I've done this FP with Operative and Merc healers. If you AoE taunt immediately after the dogs first jump to you, and then keep Smashing and doing other AoE attacks, it shouldn't be an issue. It sounds to me like yours might be an issue of timing, that you aren't using your AoE soon enough. Obviously, it's more challenging on a Juggernaut tank than an Assassin or Powertech. When I Sin tank it, I open with Wither and Discharge (both AoE abilities) and then AoE taunt for good measure.
The problem I have is sometimes the dogs don't jump me. I saber throw or leap to the guy in the middle and the dogs jump the healer in the back. Then I have to Intercede back to the healer and gather up the aggro. I suspect latency in my connection plays a part too but that is not something I can control. Where as if I LoS them I can always gather the agro as they come around the corner and it adds 5 or 6 seconds to the pull at most.

I'm glad you've never had this issue but I have and so far LoSing has been an effective work around.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prototypemind View Post
The dogs have a random aggro table and will attack whomever they want. The tank's job is to keep the boss occupied and away from the group while this is happening.
I'm talking about the trash pull right before that one.

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
08.12.2014 , 12:42 PM | #4357
Quote: Originally Posted by KarathAnno View Post
The problem I have is sometimes the dogs don't jump me. I saber throw or leap to the guy in the middle and the dogs jump the healer in the back.
Ok, here's your problem, Saber throw to start a pull that is initial aggro intensive is not what you want to do. Since most dps are trigger happy, they will attack the instant the red light goes on. Then you have to leap. Thats two GCDs used where you generate almost no threat. So, by the time the third GCD rolls around and you Smash, everybody has run off to eat your dps and healer. The best way to start a pull as a jugg is to hit Enrage, Leap > Smash >(sundering if the smash was resisted) > Crushing blow, etc and so on.

If you know it wont be necessary/useful in the near future, hitting saber reflect also generates a ton of aoe threat.

Another trick is holding your aoe taunt until *after* the mortar volley or whatever pulls off you but before they get too far away. Taunts set your aggro 10% above the highest person on the aggro table. That commando just used its biggest skill, hes not going to be doing anywhere near that amount of damage again for a while, whereas you just borrowed all his dps and made it effectively your own.

Fdzzaigl's Avatar


Fdzzaigl
08.12.2014 , 01:16 PM | #4358
Quote: Originally Posted by lazyax View Post
I totally agree with this comment. Lately have been in fp's where lack of communication within the group has been an issue, and have had very similar experiences as the poster above, ie, tank makes moves that might be an LOS pull or maybe not, but either way ends up doing one or the other and doesn't tell the rest of the group. I would say out of those events, maybe 25-30% of those result in a death of at least one or all players. If nothing is mentioned before a pull I will assume the standard, basic rules of dps, healing, and tanking.
I'm surprised that people in group finder would even know what a LoS pull is. In my own tanking days in this game (granted, that was near the start) and others, people usually have no clue whatsoever about abusing LoS.

Even when I tried to explain to them what I was about to do, as I used the manoeuvre a lot, people usually just rushed the heck forward anyhow because they didn't get it. Not even when you just told them to stand behind object X. That's not accounting for guild runs of course.

So far I haven't seen any difference in the PuG runs I've done since my return.

Either way, if DPS would just kindly stay behind the tank and wait until he has pulled, you can simply see what he's gonna do. There's not usually much reason for anyone else to pull.

KarathAnno's Avatar


KarathAnno
08.12.2014 , 01:42 PM | #4359
Quote: Originally Posted by Dras_Keto View Post
Ok, here's your problem, Saber throw to start a pull that is initial aggro intensive is not what you want to do. Since most dps are trigger happy, they will attack the instant the red light goes on. Then you have to leap. Thats two GCDs used where you generate almost no threat. So, by the time the third GCD rolls around and you Smash, everybody has run off to eat your dps and healer. The best way to start a pull as a jugg is to hit Enrage, Leap > Smash >(sundering if the smash was resisted) > Crushing blow, etc and so on.

If you know it wont be necessary/useful in the near future, hitting saber reflect also generates a ton of aoe threat.

Another trick is holding your aoe taunt until *after* the mortar volley or whatever pulls off you but before they get too far away. Taunts set your aggro 10% above the highest person on the aggro table. That commando just used its biggest skill, hes not going to be doing anywhere near that amount of damage again for a while, whereas you just borrowed all his dps and made it effectively your own.
I do understand that and how threat works etc. I only started using saber throw on that pull to test different things after the leap --> reflect or smash failed a couple of times because the dogs jumped the healer instead of me. Again most of the time these tactics work there but on occasion I've had the dogs totally ignore me at the start of the fight if I try to leap to the dog and the guy.

Every time it has happened to me they have gone after the healer instantly (which is how I know it is not DPS throwing out to much AoE damage to quickly, otherwise they would be the targets) and it has always been with a healer with some sort of HoT or reactive heal running.

So I suspect that it is some combination of timing and latency where I leap and start the fight, gain agro on the target I leap to. If I am lagging sufficiently then there are fractions of a second where I have started the fight but the client and server do not agree on my location so so I cannot immediately follow up with a Smash/AoE threat gain. In that time if a heal goes off the healer gets a very small amount of threat on all the enemies and they jump him or her.

While I am not 100% sure that is happening it fits what I see. So I've started LoSing by running just around the corner and then stepping back when the first red dot reaches it. I can smash and catch one to three of them and then hold Crushing Blow for when the rest of the pack arrives. I then step back around the corner and
the dps goes to town. Even if I am lagging slightly they have no other target so they cannot leap past me to avoid the Smash,

It takes a few seconds longer but I have not had my healer jumped by 5-6 dogs at once since I started doing it. Not saying anyone else needs to just pointing out that I do it and I have a reason.

venomlash's Avatar


venomlash
08.12.2014 , 01:53 PM | #4360
Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
Why would anyone LOS the dog pull right before the first boss in Mando Raiders? All of the dogs are melee; they'll jump right to the tank when he starts the pull by attacking the single humanoid target in the middle, so there's no positioning that needs to be done. LOS means "line of sight" and is only used to force ranged enemies to group together, it has absolutely no benefit when facing melee targets.
The issue I've seen sometimes is that the dogs have a leap; if a DPS or the healer pulls aggro for even a moment, they'll have a bunch of dog breath in their face about half a second later and they'll often be out of my AoE range. As some have mentioned, an inopportune HoT tick can cause them to go after the healer before my AoEs start hitting, but if the healer is around the corner, the dogs have to walk the distance. It's not necessary with a good group, but I tend to take extra precautions in groupfinder runs.