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The weird people you meet in Group Finder.


Strajder's Avatar


Strajder
06.06.2014 , 03:36 AM | #3371
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
If the healer had aggro - you failed as a dps. Exclusively blaming the tank will not help.
He failed to do his job as a tank. I take it your main character being a tank is a reason for being so protective?

Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
What you call "precise control over the game" is actually the amount of player skill and effort involved in playing said game.
Actually, SW: TOR not showing those numbers covers up bad players. In WoW they are more easily identified.

Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
Go play WoW. SWTOR is already ridiculously easy to faceroll.
No thanks. The only reasons I left WoW to SW: TOR are the stories of both games. Although annoying, it would take a lot more than one noob tank to turn me away from SW: TOR.

Danylia's Avatar


Danylia
06.06.2014 , 03:38 AM | #3372
Quote: Originally Posted by LostInReverie View Post
At this point, with the "tank" needing on anything that says strength regardless if it's medium Sentinel armor or not (he's a Guardian, remember) ...
In fact there's nothing wrong with that. The armor is needed for the mods - there's no difference between Armoring from Heavy armor, and Armoring from Medium armor (once it is removed from the original shell). Same for mods and enhancements.

The only situation where this would be wrong (= improper due to unwritten rules) is when you are Sentinel or DPS Guardian and Need on armor which has tanking mods in it - while there's an actual Guardian tank in the group.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
Last nights group finder was a mess. The short version is that two of the people were really bad but the tank was pretty good. After we called it I asked the tank if he wanted to queue up with me. He said "I'm eleven and I have to go to bed".
The one guy who knew what he was doing was eleven years old.

Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
06.06.2014 , 04:19 AM | #3373
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
If the healer had aggro - you failed as a dps. Exclusively blaming the tank will not help.
If the healer is under attack then it is always the tank's fault (unless mechanics ofcourse).
Tank controls the fight and has an overview of the fight. If the tank notices that the dps are ignoring some weak mobs which are now on the healer, then the tank has to grab them.

Better said, if the healer gets agro from the tank, then the tank did not hit everything.
Ofcourse you can mention to the dps to take those weaker ones first since it its their 'job' (or task? Sounds so not fun). But the tank is responsible for minimizing the damage dealt to the healer, even if the derp dps gets more incoming damage for ignoring his task/job/killing priority (and attacking the strong one first).

Sadly, often when I dps I see both my co-dps and the tank taking on the strong, leaving me on healer protection duty.
The Red Eclipse
Republic Enforcers Suddenly Taken Over

midianlord's Avatar


midianlord
06.06.2014 , 04:30 AM | #3374
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
Being challenged as heals is more fun than being challenged as Tank.

As Tank, when people make messes, you're usually just irritated beyond belief because Tanks require a plan and organization to prevent total chaos breaking out, especially CD-based tanks like Jug. It's really a lot less fun when you're not firmly in control.

As Heals, your job is basically the same either way, it just gets more or less intense as people do more or less stupid things. And you can always just "drop" someone if they're becoming too much of a healing burden. It's a lot more flexible and exciting to be challenged to keep up with crazy circumstances as heals.

So while healing a dumb or crazy group is more stressful, it's also a lot more fun. That's why I'm willing to put up with very nearly anything as healer, as long as I know I can do it (eg, if someone's standing in flame jets on Ortol I just nope.gif and write them off).

Tanking a dumb or crazy group is rarely exciting or fun, not even really stressful, it's just irritating. It's like trying to drive a car and someone keeps shooting out the tires every 50 meters. Your job doesn't really change press gas, steer wheel it just becomes hopelessly more tedious, and you sort of resign yourself and stop trying. Much less fun.
Yeah, I can dig that.

I myself have had the odd experience like that --like I said, I rarely heal-- where I'm like, "OMG, I can't believe I was able to heal through all that idiocy!" And I feel a legit sense of accomplishment for it, especially given that I am at best, an "average" healer.

(I will always be an r/DPSer in my heart of hearts, and I've been told I'm not half-bad at it.)

It does get quite stressful, though, and I just don't want that extra stress in my game-time.

It might be because I'm a trucker IRL, so I have to deal with a lot of this as it is, and if I fail to pay attention to everything there, then it might just get someone hurt (or worse), if a civilian vehicle (think of your typical civilian driver as, "typical tunnel-vision DPS-equivalent") isn't constantly watched out for by me. (Like, yeah, you weigh 1,500kg. I weigh 40,000kg. Who do you think is going to win that one if both of us aren't watching?)

Whilst DPSing though, I feel much more free to "run my own race" as it were, and just concentrate on playing my own role as best i can, and let the chips fall where they may.

Proof:

I'm much less inclined to rage-quit an instance as DPS even with egregiously stupid team-mates, unless it's manifestly clear that we simply cannot progress further, whereas as heals, I'm a lot quicker to just say "You know what? **** these idiots, they can keep piling on their repair-bills without me just fine...."

I can see more easily now why many tanks and healers just up and quit a bad group without a word, at any rate (that's still bloody rude, though --at least tell a diplomatic little white lie by saying, like, "sorry guys, RL-aggro," or something.).
SW: tOR and BioWare are dead to me.
20 December 2011 --- 26 January 2017
#SWTOR_DeservedBetterThanBen

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
06.06.2014 , 06:35 AM | #3375
Quote: Originally Posted by Whojoo View Post
If the healer is under attack then it is always the tank's fault (unless mechanics ofcourse).
Tank controls the fight and has an overview of the fight. If the tank notices that the dps are ignoring some weak mobs which are now on the healer, then the tank has to grab them.
If healer is under attack and tank is ignoring it then it's your job to do whatever it takes to get those mobs on you. You're the one who is supposed to protect healer. Also you can't expect tank to hold aggro on everything and never lose aggro.

Healer's priority number one is "stay alive". Healer who is getting hit can't heal tank or you.
People say tactical/veteran mode flashpoints are difficult. I would like to disagree.

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
06.06.2014 , 06:54 AM | #3376
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
You'll excuse me if I take that experience with a grain of salt since Oriconian tanking gear mostly favors Endurance and their enhancements have Accuracy and Alacrity on them. Even some Dread Forged pieces (shadow tank gloves, for example) have a completely useless enhancement. While a dps and a healer can get by with some more accuracy or alacrity, these are useless for a tank and have to be replaced. Gearing a tank has always been a terrible chore and BW has done nothing to make it a bit easier, let alone bring it on par with dps and heal classes.
You are not excused. Ofc I am not talking about the full pieces. I'm not stupid.
Also using OC enhancements as a dps? ...... I hope I read that part incorrect?
Assuming a 2,8125:1 surge vs power ratio (approx ratio according to thok-zeus when comparing mainstat vs surge) you get:
ARK - 47 power 72 surge - 72,6 points (47 + 72 / 2,8125)
UW - 52 power 79 surge - 80,09 points (52 + 79 / 2.8125)
OC - 39 power 94 surge - 72,42 points (39 + 94 / 2.8125)
Since surge is really tough to capture in a ratio I think its safe to state that based on 1 piece, OC can be compared against the level of ARK. Even when you get enough accuracy to let you use 1 more surge piece I still doubt whether its even coming close to UW.

Tanking mods / enhancements:
OC-mod = 88 endu 55 abs/def
UW-mod = 52 endu 57 abs/def
difference = 36 endu 2 abs/def
verdict = difference is so small for 8 man content that its barely an issue. 16 man content is even less an issue

OC-enh = 94 endu 88 shield 22 abs/def
UW-enh = 63 endu 79 shield 32 abs/def
difference = 31 endu 9 shield 10 abs/def
verdict = If assuming that endurance is favorable in a 25:1 ratio you end up with slightly more budget. Again the difference is small.

Final verdict: Overall OC vs UW means slightly less mitigation vs a ******** of extra HP. While the discussion about which is BiS is outside the scope of the thread the actual difference is minimal to say the least.

Speaking about the random dread forged quality enhancementdrops in operations. I currently only see the following drops:
- 94 shield 39 def/abs
- 94 surge 62 crit

Speaking about DF quality gear purchasable with comms:
- 94 alac 62 power enhancement (knight/warrior)
- 82 mainstat 69 power/crit mods

Earpiece/implants issues:
- OC earpiece DPS/healer is okey
- OC earpiece tank is okey but ......... craftable veracity is better statwise
- OC implants DPs/healer is okey
- OC implant tanks are crap but ....... craftable veracity outperforms UW and is very close to DF

Long story short. If you have more issues gearing up your tank than a dps/healer for DF/DP HM than you are doing something wrong.
Progression raiding toons on the big RED
Macewindy - Sab Slinger since patch 1.2 through ups and downs

PugsloveHP - the 96k HP commando DPS/healer

Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
06.06.2014 , 07:07 AM | #3377
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
If healer is under attack and tank is ignoring it then it's your job to do whatever it takes to get those mobs on you. You're the one who is supposed to protect healer. Also you can't expect tank to hold aggro on everything and never lose aggro.

Healer's priority number one is "stay alive". Healer who is getting hit can't heal tank or you.
When I am dps I don't expect a tank to hold agro on everything. If the tank at least hits everything or most of the trash once so the healer is safe then I'm happy. I don't care of trash hits me as dps, it is nearly impossible for a tank to hold agro on everything vs dps.

But vs heals it is different. Smack everything once (aoe ftw) and let dps follow kill order. Healer won't overagro unless the healer tries to go god mode and heals at maximum capacity. Still not very likely to grab agro on stray trash since the healer's threat is spread equally over eerything in combat.

So tank can and should hold agro over healers. It is the easiest thing to do. But the dps are allowed to agro single targets as long as the mass is attacking the tank.
Or at least that's my view.
The Red Eclipse
Republic Enforcers Suddenly Taken Over

ThatGnome's Avatar


ThatGnome
06.06.2014 , 07:23 AM | #3378
I hate Marauders. And Sentinels. I will never join another flashpoint where I have to heal for one again.

So, first was Athiss, my Sorceror 21 Healer, a Powertech 22 Tank, a Sniper 21 DPS, a Marauder 19 DPS. The DPS won't stop pulling until he dies, because he's got Rage and he's going to spend it, and if other people have no resources to spend that's not his problem. He wears a mix of Cunning and Strength armour, he needs on a piece of Cunning armour and excuses himself saying he thought it was useful because it's medium armour - so the PT and I patiently explain the difference between Cunning and Strength armour and why he needs the second and doesn't need the first. He breaks CC repeatedly, both mine as Sorc and a couple of Droid hacks from the Sniper, even after it's explained why that's not needed. He ignores adds to focus on the most powerful enemy, even when the PT asks him not to. He dies in the last fight, because he won't stop swinging to get away from the fire. Then he Needs on a sniper rifle, just because.

Well, that's bad, but I like to believe it's a new player in their first real FP where roles matter. Surely te same can't be true at higher levels. I switch to Republic, get my Combat Medic out, queue, and almost immediately get a Maelstrom Prison run. Well, I'm level 40, so it's a little bit below my level, but why not it's not as if I need something harder. a Shadow and Sage from the same guiild, and a Sentinel.

The Sentinel is less competent than the Marauder, and rude in chat to the healer who wasn't keeping him alive and the tank who wasn't holding aggro. As far as I could tell he never did anything to lower his own threat, and concentrated on attacking whichever target the tank was on "because burning down the mobs quicker is better!" As you can probably imagine, a Sentinel determined to keep using their Focus rather than "letting it go to waste" is rather good at taking aggro from a Shadow with no/little force, and if the tank doesn't have enough to aggro the other mobs then they look for a target like the healer to turn into a smear on the ground. Almost the whole time that Sentinel was in the group then I was tanking encounters by healing myself through the damage everything was inflicting, while the sage off-healed and the shadow and sentinel did DPS. Rather predictably he didn't try to use cover to avoid the laser. Immediately afterwards we vote-kicked him, and got a perfectly nice Vanguard DPS a few seconds later who finished the mission with us.

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
06.06.2014 , 07:26 AM | #3379
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
You'll excuse me if I take that experience with a grain of salt since Oriconian tanking gear mostly favors Endurance and their enhancements have Accuracy and Alacrity on them. Even some Dread Forged pieces (shadow tank gloves, for example) have a completely useless enhancement. While a dps and a healer can get by with some more accuracy or alacrity, these are useless for a tank and have to be replaced. Gearing a tank has always been a terrible chore and BW has done nothing to make it a bit easier, let alone bring it on par with dps and heal classes.
I should take a moment here to remind you that any spec with a short-term ICD without a synched up normal cooldown will be screwed over by alacrity, e.g. Assault/Pyro spec, Infiltration/Deception spec, ect... and in other cases (Watchman/Annihilation Sentinel/Marauder, Vigilance/Vengeance Guardian/Juggernaut) it doesn't do anything at all.
Kwerty, Level 65 Vanguard/Powertech on The Harbinger

3.0 Guides: Vanguard DPS Guide | Powertech DPS Guide
4.0 Guides: Advanced Prototype | Pyrotech

wingzerokia's Avatar


wingzerokia
06.06.2014 , 10:40 AM | #3380
So a couple of stories today from me:

While on my 41 Vanguard (Shield Spec) in KDY, I was grouped up with a couple of commando DPS (28 and 50), and a Guardian (15), I've really got to hand it to the Commando's they did a great job jumping from DPS to Heals and back again, but the guardian.... wow, I thought it was almost cute how they thought to use Guard on me all the time, I'd remove it, they'd cast it on me again... no matter I still kept the act as the agro whore. My issue with the guardian, is they never let anyone recover from the fights, so all three of us troopers were going into fights at 50% or less resources, so glad I've got a bunch of skills that I can use for free in my spec... but even when we asked them to slow down, we got no response from them, nothing! What is KDY teaching people about group etiquette?

The next one comes from my 35 Merc Arsenal spec, I will never understand why some people que for roles they will not run... The last run I did on boarding party, was an all Bounty Hunter run, it would've been great, if the 'healer' and the other 'DPS' had actually qued for the roles that they wanted to play... what we had for that run, was two tanks and two DPS, till I took my 25 points spent in arsenal, and proceeded to heal the group, while the 'healer' only wanted DPS.... Now I managed to pull it off, but only just, makes me think about re-specing as a healer.... so again I wonder what KDY is teaching people...

Now don't get me wrong I think KDY is a great idea, just a bit on the poor execution this tactical flashpoint system is, if you ask me, is not teaching people what they need to know, if you go outside of KDY.
Ellisas -- Shield Specialist Vanguard
Pade -- MM sniper