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The weird people you meet in Group Finder.


Lord_of_Mu's Avatar


Lord_of_Mu
12.11.2013 , 06:18 AM | #1481
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
Strange people: healers that ask for guard and tank that guard the healer by default.
Strangest of all people: tanks who give in the healer's demands for guard.


I've had healers ragequit teams because of me not guarding them as tank. One left when I (sentinel) took the tank's side of not guarding the healer. No idea what's wrong with people and why they want that guard to be wasted on them.
I've had healers demand guard then leave because I ignored their demands. It's quite amusing, especially when next to nothing is hitting them. Like they take two hits from weak mobs during a pull while I'm moving around grabbing everything and they freak out.

I also dislike queuing as one of my dps alts and having the tank guard the healer. Only to find myself pulling threat on every pull, with my threat reduction ability on cooldown and no way to drop threat, short of just stopping all actions.

feketebirka's Avatar


feketebirka
12.11.2013 , 07:59 AM | #1482
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
I've had healers demand guard then leave because I ignored their demands. It's quite amusing, especially when next to nothing is hitting them. Like they take two hits from weak mobs during a pull while I'm moving around grabbing everything and they freak out.

I also dislike queuing as one of my dps alts and having the tank guard the healer. Only to find myself pulling threat on every pull, with my threat reduction ability on cooldown and no way to drop threat, short of just stopping all actions.
I totally disagree on this one. At least for sub-50 levels. Yes, on hard mode fp-s dpg can out-threat the tank pretty much, and even trash mob can do serious damage to dps. But on sub-50 sm fp-s ... if dps is getting serious damage, then he is doing something he should not, like:

- pulling mob ahead of tank
- killing elite mob first (i like to watch dps die on this one) while there are weak alive
- using aoe on many strong
- just generally ignoring kill order

And yes, most sub-50 tanks are pretty newbies. Most of them wont do a good job tanking, so playing safe is good. 90% of sub-50 sm dps are _not_ killing weak to strong, and do stuff for fun that makes tank's job harder (like pushing mob around). So, my priority in sub-50 sm stays to keep aggro (and damage) from healer, that includes guarding the healer.

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.11.2013 , 08:06 AM | #1483
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
I've had healers demand guard ...
I wonder if these healers actually realize what Guard does.

Here is the tooltip text:
Quote:
While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transferred back to you.
Note the bolded/underlined part. I think many healers read that part and don't read the rest that says "from enemy players" and do not realize that the 50% damage reduction does not apply in Flashpoints. I think that confusion arrises because they participate in PvP where having Guard does effectively reduce the damage they take by 50% (because it is being coming "from enemy players") and they do not realize that that mechanic does not transfer over to Flashpoints.

They may also believe that the "25% less threat" they generate is more importante than it really is in a Flashpoint. Heals generate 50% threat already, so in actual fact they are only gaining a 12.5% reduction. Damage however has a 100% threat modifier. To use a rough exemple: a healer that heals for 1000 will only generate 500 threat, and if they have Guard it will generate 437,5 threat (a difference of 62,5 threat); a damage dealer that hits for 1000 will generate 1000 threat, but if they have Guard they will only generate 750 threat (a difference of 250 threat). As such a damage dealer benefits much more from Guard in a Flashpoint than a healer does.

Maybe this should be made clear to Healers who ask for Guard instead of just assuming that they are "weird" .
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

Tailsfortales's Avatar


Tailsfortales
12.11.2013 , 09:07 AM | #1484
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
I've had healers demand guard then leave because I ignored their demands. It's quite amusing, especially when next to nothing is hitting them. Like they take two hits from weak mobs during a pull while I'm moving around grabbing everything and they freak out.

I also dislike queuing as one of my dps alts and having the tank guard the healer. Only to find myself pulling threat on every pull, with my threat reduction ability on cooldown and no way to drop threat, short of just stopping all actions.
I've noticed in most groups, if I'm healing or DPSing (sage/Scoundrel) that the tank doesn't usually guard someone. I don't have a tank so I don't know how guard works. Sometimes they guard the healer, and I'm thinking, "I've heard guard doesn't work on healers, but I don't know" and sometimes I've seen them never guard anyone once.
Edit: Reading the post above I see why guard doesn't work on healers. I never ask for it if I'm healing anyways, but it's still nice to know/
''In e-spess no one can hear you e-scream unless it's done with proper e-hyperbole and e-hysteria."

avatarearth's Avatar


avatarearth
12.11.2013 , 09:18 AM | #1485
Quote: Originally Posted by MatthewSphilli View Post
Then one of the Dps says "can you guys give me a minute? "Tank says "sure"
DPs: "I gotta go get butter"
Tank: "what?"
Me: "seriously?
The dps "it's right across the street"
Me: "dude can't the butter wait
"Dps: "I'll be right back, I swear"
Funniest post I have seen on the forums.

Loc_n_lol's Avatar


Loc_n_lol
12.11.2013 , 09:29 AM | #1486
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
a healer that heals for 1000 will only generate 500 threat, and if they have Guard it will generate 437,5 threat (a difference of 62,5 threat)
You're halving threat one too many times. It's 375.
It's also threat that goes to all enemies currently engaged. Situationally,and depending on the tank's aoe threat generation capacity, I'd say guarding the healer is not as stupid as you say.
If nothing else, it's still 5% DR. If neither of the DPS is capable of pulling from the tank there's no reason not to guard the healer.
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Khaleijo's Avatar


Khaleijo
12.11.2013 , 10:13 AM | #1487
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
I've had healers demand guard then leave because I ignored their demands. It's quite amusing, especially when next to nothing is hitting them. Like they take two hits from weak mobs during a pull while I'm moving around grabbing everything and they freak out.

I also dislike queuing as one of my dps alts and having the tank guard the healer. Only to find myself pulling threat on every pull, with my threat reduction ability on cooldown and no way to drop threat, short of just stopping all actions.
Usually i'll guard the highest dps toon (level or equipment) in the group or sometimes the healer, if i'm sure that there will be no threat issues with the dps at all or if there is a fight ahead, that might be dangerous for the healer that he could use lower threat and 5% damage reduction. If i never met the other players before, i guard no one at start and wait a while to see how the others play. For example i won't guard a dps who is constantly pulling instead of me or hitting wrong targets. If there is someone doing everything right and still getting hits from stronger enemies because i can't hold threat, he'll get guard of course, but sadly while leveling people who know what to hit is rarer than i would prefer.

I also had a lot of healers who demanded to be guarded and wouldn't do one step without guard. It didn't really help to explain them how guard works and that they don't need it in a group with a good tank and good dps who remember the kill order.
As long as there are no good dps who have to hold back because the healer being guarded instead of them, i often give in and guard the healer to avoid all these discussions around "guard me or i leave". I just want to play the flashpoint smoothly and not waste my time discussing with people who don't understand guard even if you quote the tooltip word by word.

I sometimes have the feeling that these healers know something like guard from other games, but there the mechanic is slightly different. If i remember correctly what someone told me, guard in Wow transferred some thread to the tank, so it would be best to guard the healer while fighting trash, because the tank would gain additional threat with all adds by that. But there are also a lot of those *i always have guard, don't know why, but i need it now too* guys around...

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.11.2013 , 10:55 AM | #1488
Quote: Originally Posted by Loc_n_lol View Post
You're halving threat one too many times. It's 375.
Actually, I applied the 25% reduction to the 50% threat modifier on healing. Thanks for calling that out. I believe your method of applying the 25% reduction to the actual threat is probably more correct. It is still less than what a damage dealer gets out of it though . Remember, healing by default already generates 50% less threat than damage. Getting 25% less threat on top of that can be less important for a healer than reducing a damage dealers threat generation by 25% (since they have no built in threat reduction).

Quote: Originally Posted by Loc_n_lol View Post
It's also threat that goes to all enemies currently engaged. Situationally,and depending on the tank's aoe threat generation capacity, I'd say guarding the healer is not as stupid as you say.
Sorry if you understood I thought it was stupid. I don't. There are times where you can (should?) Guard the healer, but there are other times where you are better off Guarding a damage dealer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Loc_n_lol View Post
If nothing else, it's still 5% DR. If neither of the DPS is capable of pulling from the tank there's no reason not to guard the healer.
True. But again, it is situational. You have a melee damage dealer standing near the tank and the boss they are fighting has some AoE damage. The healer on the hand is standing 30m away. Who should get the Guard (and the 5% DR )?

Either way, I was just suggesting that some healers may not realize how Guard works in a non-PvP environment (especially if they PvP alot).
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

ZentheSecond's Avatar


ZentheSecond
12.11.2013 , 10:59 AM | #1489
I will guard healers in some fights, like Grob. Because those adds will always target a healer and granted I am very good at wrangling them up every now and then one slips to a healer. Guess what both healers are guarded and take 5% less damage, which also applies to the AoE damage that Grob does allowing the healers to spend more time healing the MT.

Also as for threat gen, a plus of being a Sin Tank. I never gaurd in a flashpoint, only in Ops lol. Cause in a FP I have yet to have most PuGs pull off of me, but Sin threat Gen is stupidly high. It is actually a trick we do in Ops if the Jugg/PT I am with is going to tank the boss for most of the fight. I open on the boss, do a full rotation with my own taunt in there and he taunts off. Boosting his threat by a ridiculous amount, he never loses threat after this kind of an opening.

Lord_of_Mu's Avatar


Lord_of_Mu
12.11.2013 , 03:11 PM | #1490
I'm used to dealing with WoW mechanics. So I have to ask, is the threat reduction from guard multiplicative or additive?

If it's multiplicative, wouldn't that also mean that it's less effective guarding a healer to the point of almost seeing it as a diminishing return because of their existing passive threat reduction vs guarding a dps which has no passive threat reduction?