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The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 06: Kit Fisto vs. Agen Kolar

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 06: Kit Fisto vs. Agen Kolar

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.03.2013 , 02:26 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by YoshiRaphElan View Post
Wait, wait...Kolar fought Ulic Qel-Droma? How is that possible?
He didn't. He fought Quinlan Vos.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.03.2013 , 03:25 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
First, Kolar fought Quinlan Vos. Second, several Jedi mastered Shii-Cho (Cin Drallig, Mace Windu, Yoda). Third, Fisto constantly preaches restraint.

"Those who have power should restrain themselves from using it."

"I didn't forget to teach you restraint, did I, my old Padawan?"

Plus you used one instance of Force Push. He restrains himself from using powers, but isn't a restrained duelist. Nowhere did I say that he was a restrained duelist. In fact, I was attempting to make that very clear in the OP. Kit Fisto is certainly capable of chaining Force powers into his lightsaber style, but viewed such things as excessive and only did so when absolutely necessary.

This is a case of you misinterpreting what I said, and using that to support your argument. However, bearing that in mind, I am leaning towards your final conclusion, but still undecided.
Again, I interpreted that more as universal Jedi dogmas (lending itself to the whole arrogant Jedi gets himself killed arc) rather than something that actually applied to his fighting style. His lightsaber form was highly aggressive, but what we have to remember is that lightsaber forms often reflect character. For example Windu's Vaapad, its a highly aggressive form that channels Windu's 'darkness into a weapon of the light.'

Likewise, Fisto's form shows something about his personality:

"I should have gone closer to the edge. Released myself into the Force, become more unpredictable. More random."
"That would have been dangerous. Not to your body, perhaps, but to your spirit."
"It is the way of Form I."


―Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi discuss Shii-Cho

So on that basis, while Fisto may preach restraint, I wouldn't say its very reflective of his fighting style. He's willing to push himself to the very edge, which is why I disagree with you on mentality, mainly that 'In combat, Kit Fisto practiced restraint.' I also believe that he'd use Force powers in battle, perhaps not excessively but I think they'd come into play. 1. Because Fisto is a Jedi Consular, and at least underwater often uses Force powers to quite a considerable extent 2. He preaches restraint, but at least in lightsaber combat he doesn't seem to follow that rule, so we have no reason to believe he'd act any differently in terms of Force powers. 3. The example was one example, but an example nonetheless, and we lack a wealth of material to comment on.

And finally, while many masters mastered Shii-Cho, Fisto seems to be the only one who uses it as a primary, singular form. Kolar may have been skilled or mastered Shii-Cho, but I highly doubt it was his primary form. Nonetheless this lends itself to my belief he may have mastered several forms and wielded some kind of hybrid.

P.S. Oops, meant Quinlan-Vos /facepalm But anyway could anyone outline how that battle played out, and how it shows Kolar to be Ataru/Niman? I think it would help me reach a conclusion...

EDIT: Oh and Fisto has Force speed, which apparently 'baffled even Obi-Wan Kenobi's experienced gaze'! I think that would given him a considerable edge against Kolar.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.03.2013 , 04:00 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Again, I interpreted that more as universal Jedi dogmas (lending itself to the whole arrogant Jedi gets himself killed arc) rather than something that actually applied to his fighting style. His lightsaber form was highly aggressive, but what we have to remember is that lightsaber forms often reflect character. For example Windu's Vaapad, its a highly aggressive form that channels Windu's 'darkness into a weapon of the light.'

Likewise, Fisto's form shows something about his personality:

"I should have gone closer to the edge. Released myself into the Force, become more unpredictable. More random."
"That would have been dangerous. Not to your body, perhaps, but to your spirit."
"It is the way of Form I."


―Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi discuss Shii-Cho

So on that basis, while Fisto may preach restraint, I wouldn't say its very reflective of his fighting style. He's willing to push himself to the very edge, which is why I disagree with you on mentality, mainly that 'In combat, Kit Fisto practiced restraint.' I also believe that he'd use Force powers in battle, perhaps not excessively but I think they'd come into play. 1. Because Fisto is a Jedi Consular, and at least underwater often uses Force powers to quite a considerable extent 2. He preaches restraint, but at least in lightsaber combat he doesn't seem to follow that rule, so we have no reason to believe he'd act any differently in terms of Force powers. 3. The example was one example, but an example nonetheless, and we lack a wealth of material to comment on.

And finally, while many masters mastered Shii-Cho, Fisto seems to be the only one who uses it as a primary, singular form. Kolar may have been skilled or mastered Shii-Cho, but I highly doubt it was his primary form. Nonetheless this lends itself to my belief he may have mastered several forms and wielded some kind of hybrid.

P.S. Oops, meant Quinlan-Vos /facepalm But anyway could anyone outline how that battle played out, and how it shows Kolar to be Ataru/Niman? I think it would help me reach a conclusion...

EDIT: Oh and Fisto has Force speed, which apparently 'baffled even Obi-Wan Kenobi's experienced gaze'! I think that would given him a considerable edge against Kolar.
Again, Kit Fisto restrains his use of the Force unless absolutely necessary. If restraint was a simple Jedi dogma, we wouldn't see many of the displays of power that some Jedi show. I am of the opinion that Kit Fisto just prefers to restrain his use of the Force. And this is reflected when he says that all who have power should restrain themselves.

And, again, you are confusing my intentions. Kit Fisto restrains his use of the Force, but not his lightsaber skills. This is why I gave Kolar the edge in Force powers and mentality. He often applied the Force in combat, where Fisto would only do so when he absolutely had to.

As to Kolar vs. Vos. I don't have the comic on hand, but I believe Kolar nearly killed Vos. The outlying circumstances for that battle are pretty confusing. The Jedi Council was using Kolar to make Vos look like a traitor, thereby cementing Vos' position in Dooku's inner circle. Kolar had no idea that this was the case, mainly believing that he had to punish a traitor.

And a good point about Force speed. I'm getting ready to call this, so I would like everyone to make a final argument.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
05.03.2013 , 04:08 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
He didn't. He fought Quinlan Vos.
Makes more sense.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.03.2013 , 04:25 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Again, Kit Fisto restrains his use of the Force unless absolutely necessary. If restraint was a simple Jedi dogma, we wouldn't see many of the displays of power that some Jedi show. I am of the opinion that Kit Fisto just prefers to restrain his use of the Force. And this is reflected when he says that all who have power should restrain themselves.

And, again, you are confusing my intentions. Kit Fisto restrains his use of the Force, but not his lightsaber skills. This is why I gave Kolar the edge in Force powers and mentality. He often applied the Force in combat, where Fisto would only do so when he absolutely had to.

As to Kolar vs. Vos. I don't have the comic on hand, but I believe Kolar nearly killed Vos. The outlying circumstances for that battle are pretty confusing. The Jedi Council was using Kolar to make Vos look like a traitor, thereby cementing Vos' position in Dooku's inner circle. Kolar had no idea that this was the case, mainly believing that he had to punish a traitor.

And a good point about Force speed. I'm getting ready to call this, so I would like everyone to make a final argument.
Aha! You are mistaken! See here, another example of Fisto using the Force in battle, with the same trademark smile he used in AoTC - clearly the writers picked up on a preference for Force pushes. Restraint yes, but he's not exactly pulling down buildings.

Anyway, I feel this battle will largely take the form of a lightsaber duel. Fisto will engage with a fast, aggresive and acrobatic attack - note the battle between Grievous and Fisto above, its pretty indicative of Fisto's remarkable abilities as a duelist. Not only does he easily disarm Grievous, but he chains his attacks with Force powers and applies tactics and acrobatics to his advantage. Given the layout of the library I'd say Fisto could get the jump on Kolar and will definitely be thinking tactically, something Kolar won't be able to do given Fisto's heightened senses.

Given Shii-Cho's focus on disarmament I reckon Fisto will disarm Kolar after an intense duel in which Fisto has all the advantages. Kolar will resort of unarmed combat but Fisto is superior in this field and will defeat him.

Also note the following:

Shii-Cho was specialized towards engaging multiple opponents, the wide, sweeping motions being ideally suited towards attacking numerous adversaries. However, Form I was not as useful against single opponents, as such enemies had complete mobility and could find a weakness in Shii-Cho's comparatively clumsy bladework. ~ Wookieepedia.

Clumsy bladework? I see no evidence of that in Fisto's style which is clearly honed and refined to perfection. Which leads me to doubt to how much of a weakness for Fisto this actually was. It would seem that Fisto would logically overcome it.

The quote also suggests that Shii-Cho gives a lack of mobility, but that is the last thing I'd use to described Fisto, he is clearly highly acrobatic to the point of flipping and cartwheeling in the midst of battle. So I think its safe to say that Fisto overcame the disadvantages. Yes he was defeated by Ventress, but Ventress had time to anaylse his form, is a very skilled duelist herself, and a wielder of Makashi which was Shii-Cho was inherently weak against. I don't think the weaknesses of Fisto's form in other terms really came into it.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.03.2013 , 04:49 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Aha! You are mistaken! See here, another example of Fisto using the Force in battle, with the same trademark smile he used in AoTC - clearly the writers picked up on a preference for Force pushes. Restraint yes, but he's not exactly pulling down buildings.
OK, so two instances. I'll give you that, but it isn't exactly a preference for Force abilities. Not to mention that his biggest abilities are practically useless within the Jedi Library.

Quote:
Anyway, I feel this battle will largely take the form of a lightsaber duel. Fisto will engage with a fast, aggresive and acrobatic attack - note the battle between Grievous and Fisto above, its pretty indicative of Fisto's remarkable abilities as a duelist. Not only does he easily disarm Grievous, but he chains his attacks with Force powers and applies tactics and acrobatics to his advantage. Given the layout of the library I'd say Fisto could get the jump on Kolar and will definitely be thinking tactically, something Kolar won't be able to do given Fisto's heightened senses.
You are correct that this will mainly fall to a lightsaber duel, but Kolar is going to apply his Force prowess mid-combat at random. Though it is unlikely that he would get the chance unless Fisto broke off his offensive (unlikely).

Quote:
Given Shii-Cho's focus on disarmament I reckon Fisto will disarm Kolar after an intense duel in which Fisto has all the advantages. Kolar will resort of unarmed combat but Fisto is superior in this field and will defeat him.
Superior to him? Kolar took out a mob of cantina patrons using his bare hands. Granted Fisto is a very skilled hand-to-hand combatant, but the evidence suggests that Kolar is better.

Quote:
Also note the following:

Shii-Cho was specialized towards engaging multiple opponents, the wide, sweeping motions being ideally suited towards attacking numerous adversaries. However, Form I was not as useful against single opponents, as such enemies had complete mobility and could find a weakness in Shii-Cho's comparatively clumsy bladework. ~ Wookieepedia.

Clumsy bladework? I see no evidence of that in Fisto's style which is clearly honed and refined to perfection. Which leads me to doubt to how much of a weakness for Fisto this actually was. It would seem that Fisto would logically overcome it.
Most likely referring to Shii-Cho's basic nature. However, it is likely that Fisto overcame this.

Quote:
The quote also suggests that Shii-Cho gives a lack of mobility, but that is the last thing I'd use to described Fisto, he is clearly highly acrobatic to the point of flipping and cartwheeling in the midst of battle. So I think its safe to say that Fisto overcame the disadvantages. Yes he was defeated by Ventress, but Ventress had time to anaylse his form, is a very skilled duelist herself, and a wielder of Makashi which was Shii-Cho was inherently weak against. I don't think the weaknesses of Fisto's form in other terms really came into it.[/COLOR]
Yes, Makashi is the scissors to Shii-Cho's paper.

I believe that Fisto will be attempting to make this a strictly lightsaber duel, which is something Kolar wouldn't really mind, given his preference for lightsaber combat.

I'll be making the decision soon, so make a final argument.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
05.03.2013 , 09:12 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
OK, so two instances. I'll give you that, but it isn't exactly a preference for Force abilities. Not to mention that his biggest abilities are practically useless within the Jedi Library.
There are plenty of objects that can be tossed around in the library...


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
You are correct that this will mainly fall to a lightsaber duel, but Kolar is going to apply his Force prowess mid-combat at random. Though it is unlikely that he would get the chance unless Fisto broke off his offensive (unlikely).
But Kit Fisto's application of power will be more unexpected, Kolar might be more predictable.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Superior to him? Kolar took out a mob of cantina patrons using his bare hands. Granted Fisto is a very skilled hand-to-hand combatant, but the evidence suggests that Kolar is better.
Though if Kit disarms Kolar, then Kit Fisto is the one with the lightsaber.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Most likely referring to Shii-Cho's basic nature. However, it is likely that Fisto overcame this.
It should also be remembered that most people that practice this form are younglings, so it would likely be considered rather clumsy.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Yes, Makashi is the scissors to Shii-Cho's paper.

I believe that Fisto will be attempting to make this a strictly lightsaber duel, which is something Kolar wouldn't really mind, given his preference for lightsaber combat.

I'll be making the decision soon, so make a final argument.
Most Jedi were not familiar with Makashi though, that probably includes Kolar.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.04.2013 , 03:24 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
OK, so two instances. I'll give you that, but it isn't exactly a preference for Force abilities. Not to mention that his biggest abilities are practically useless within the Jedi Library.
TBH it doesn't matter how many times Fisto uses it. The first instance may not bear much weight as he wasn't actually engaging in lightsaber combat and it was more of a plot device. However in the second instance Fisto chained a Force based attack into his lightsaber style. We cannot ignore this. Kit Fisto has only ever displayed a use of Jar'Kai once, are we therefore to assume he is not trained in Jar'Kai? No, so likewise if Fisto chains a Force-based attack into his lightsaber style even once we have to assume it is a component of his style given that there are no exceptional circumstances.

It very well may be he was a praciticioner of Niman as well as Shii-Cho, and given that he is a Jedi Consular (one who focuses on wielding the Force) this is a possibility. I'd also again bring into question how far Fisto's preaching of restraint (which may I add was mainly a plot device) actually means he did not favor Force based attacks. For one he's a consular, so it seems counter-intuitive, and secondly in the majority of the battles he has been in, he has drawn on the Force. See here in particular, a pretty excessive use of the Force. Yes he won't be able to use this in the Library but it lends itself to the notion that he is not adverse, and it fact prefers, to chain his lightsaber attacks with a randomized Force pushes, which in turn complements his Form.

Altogether I think we are giving too much weight to Fisto's advice to Nahdar Vebb, which was merely a former Master trying to steer his apprentice away from the dark. Given that Fisto's form led him on a similar path we would expect him, much like Windu, to advise caution to younger students less able to control such aggresive power. But Fisto does not practice restraint in the sense that Qui-Gon does, there is no in-practice evidence of this, but rather evidence to the contrary.
Quote:
You are correct that this will mainly fall to a lightsaber duel, but Kolar is going to apply his Force prowess mid-combat at random. Though it is unlikely that he would get the chance unless Fisto broke off his offensive (unlikely).
But on the basis of the above, Fisto would actually do the same - if not more effectively given that he is a Jedi Consular, and wields a highly randomized and unpredictable form. I'd also assume you drew the conclusion that this was part of Kolar's fighting style from an example of him using it in battle, no?
Quote:
Superior to him? Kolar took out a mob of cantina patrons using his bare hands. Granted Fisto is a very skilled hand-to-hand combatant, but the evidence suggests that Kolar is better.
Well Kit Fisto has been described as a 'martial arts hurricane', and this fits with his extremely agile and acrobatic abilities. Kolar may have taken on some cantina folk, but that's not exactly impressive given the caliber of such scum and villainy. I'd say that they are at least equally matched, if not Fisto superior given his physical superiority.
Quote:
Yes, Makashi is the scissors to Shii-Cho's paper.

I believe that Fisto will be attempting to make this a strictly lightsaber duel, which is something Kolar wouldn't really mind, given his preference for lightsaber combat.
Well he would mind, when Fisto overwhelms and disarms him.

And if the going gets tough, Fisto will not hesitate to use the Force to say, collapse a bookcase on him. In fact given his strategic mind he may opt for this in the first place to trap and expose Kolar.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.04.2013 , 09:05 AM | #49
I don't have much time, so I won't post a scenario, but the winner is...

Kit Fisto. In the end, Master Fisto proved himself to be a great swordsman. But, to be honest, if anything killed Agen Kolar, it was lack of information. I had intended for Kolar to a placeholder until I picked someone else, but that didn't happen. Oh, well.

Our next match will feature Darth Sidious' ultimate weapon and Count Dooku's rogue assassin.

As you might have guessed, Darth Maul is in the next match. However, his radical change from The Phantom Menace to The Clone Wars forces me to pose a question. Which incarnation of Maul would you prefer to see? Vote, vote, vote!

But vote wisely.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
05.04.2013 , 09:08 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I don't have much time, so I won't post a scenario, but the winner is...

Kit Fisto. In the end, Master Fisto proved himself to be a great swordsman. But, to be honest, if anything killed Agen Kolar, it was lack of information. I had intended for Kolar to a placeholder until I picked someone else, but that didn't happen. Oh, well.

Our next match will feature Darth Sidious' ultimate weapon and Count Dooku's rogue assassin.

As you might have guessed, Darth Maul is in the next match. However, his radical change from The Phantom Menace to The Clone Wars forces me to pose a question. Which incarnation of Maul would you prefer to see? Vote, vote, vote!

But vote wisely.
Radical change? Isn't the only thing that changed, was Maul having a lower half cyborg body? Though if your gonna do the Clone Wars version, then you are also including TPM version, there really isn't much difference between the two. Well that, and SW is all just one universe...I mean if your going to include just up to TPM then Maul is gonna lose pretty badly.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.