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Give medics a HoT...would it be OP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
Give medics a HoT...would it be OP?

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
04.29.2013 , 11:10 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoBearsFan View Post
I totally agree, being able to self heal with HS would be a welcome change. Smugglers can self heal with their free cast diagnostic scan so why shouldn't we be able to?
There is a difference there, it's channeled and can't be used on the move. A better example would probably be force mend of the sages, but that's mostly used to offset the noble sacrifice health cost. In the end direct skill comparison is hard to do, but unless we want to blow a long, emergency, cd on us, we basically have to spam kolto bomb on our feet (or use traditional healing like all healers). Both sages and scoundrels have easier ways to deal with
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
04.29.2013 , 12:01 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
There is a difference there, it's channeled and can't be used on the move. A better example would probably be force mend of the sages, but that's mostly used to offset the noble sacrifice health cost. In the end direct skill comparison is hard to do, but unless we want to blow a long, emergency, cd on us, we basically have to spam kolto bomb on our feet (or use traditional healing like all healers). Both sages and scoundrels have easier ways to deal with
Ya, I play both. There is a difference but it is essentially the same type of skill except one is reverse cast and one is still castable on the move. They are still both free cast single target hots. That's why in PVP a free, *mobile* self heal would make The commando very tough to kill.
Bearsfan - Commando Healer / DPS
Chicago - Shadow Tank
BeÓrs - Scoundrel Healer
<The Jedi of Camelot>JawaSpanker Legacy ~ POT5 Server

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
04.29.2013 , 04:41 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoBearsFan View Post
Ya, I play both. There is a difference but it is essentially the same type of skill except one is reverse cast and one is still castable on the move. They are still both free cast single target hots. That's why in PVP a free, *mobile* self heal would make The commando very tough to kill.
Well, given what I've seen sorcs and scoundrels do, I'm not sure it would be that big of a problem :P
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
04.29.2013 , 05:19 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoBearsFan View Post
Kolto bomb has a HoT on it for unlimited number of players who stand in kolto cloud (area of effect is bigger that target circle). EXCELLENT heal! Throw it on every CD.
Sorry I couldn't help myself, Please don't throw it on every CD if you are healing an operation, You only need to throw it once every 15 seconds on the tank, and once at the beginning and at the end of supercharged cells to maximise uptime on charged barrier. This is all provided that your role in an operation is single target heals, if you are on group healing duty then you probably shouldn't be playing a commando :P.

In response to people discussing the commandos getting a self heal/chance to proc an instant heal, commandos are a casting healer, so we need to stand still cast our heals effectively, but we have a few ways to throw out some instant heals. In pvp, you can throw trauma probe onto yourself to help mitigate some damage, you have an instant heal (BI) on an 18s CD, you have your instant kolto bomb on a 6s CD and then you can pop Reserve Powercell + Tech Override together and get a free, instant AMP or MP. I think a self heal combined with our current healing abilities is unwarranted.

Also, the complaint about the green beam in pvp. The other team will notice that you are a combat medic the first time they target you and see the cell. Embrace the green beam and use it to peel people off and laugh at them while you sit there and heal yourself, become relatively invinciible for the best part of 20 seconds while you pop: Reactive Shield and heal, then pop Adrenaline rush + Hold the line and keep healing. As a commando healer you should be able to withstand a two people beating on you for a quite a while if you have all your cooldowns up and ready.

The point is, you have a big green beam that marks you out as a healer, the other team had to find out sometime, suck it up
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
04.30.2013 , 04:40 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
Sorry I couldn't help myself, Please don't throw it on every CD if you are healing an operation, You only need to throw it once every 15 seconds on the tank, and once at the beginning and at the end of supercharged cells to maximise uptime on charged barrier. This is all provided that your role in an operation is single target heals, if you are on group healing duty then you probably shouldn't be playing a commando :P.
This makes no sense! KB is a short CD, cheap AOE quick heal with an added HoT and 5% heal buff with residue. *Only* casting it on the tank every 15sec is such a waste and lowers your healing output. It should be thrown as the tank, melee, ranged, self, anywhere there is a small cluster of teammates at every cool down. While we don't have the same massive HOT that sages do, KB is the next best thing having a nice area of effect, instant cast and instantly heals upfront not to mention the newly added HoT. I see no reason to be stingy with this skill at all.
Furthermore while commandos ARE the best single target healers, simply relegating them to that role is nonsense. The fact is a well played commando has no trouble healing a group and in ops it is not the tank that only needs heals. While some groups in ops may prefer to assign healing responsibilities to say that commandos role should be single target heals only is short sighted and not fully utilizing the commando's potential.
If utilizing ALL the skills at your disposal as a commando (in a good rotation) then you should have no problem healing the tank AND the group.
Bearsfan - Commando Healer / DPS
Chicago - Shadow Tank
BeÓrs - Scoundrel Healer
<The Jedi of Camelot>JawaSpanker Legacy ~ POT5 Server

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
04.30.2013 , 07:46 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoBearsFan View Post
This makes no sense! KB is a short CD, cheap AOE quick heal with an added HoT and 5% heal buff with residue. *Only* casting it on the tank every 15sec is such a waste and lowers your healing output. It should be thrown as the tank, melee, ranged, self, anywhere there is a small cluster of teammates at every cool down. While we don't have the same massive HOT that sages do, KB is the next best thing having a nice area of effect, instant cast and instantly heals upfront not to mention the newly added HoT. I see no reason to be stingy with this skill at all.
I think you are confusing overall healing output, with useful healing output. Kolto Bomb costs 16 ammo cells and heals for around 2000-2500 on the main heal, and then around 1000 (Being very generous) on the HoT (This is assuming no crit). The main heal is applied to a maximum of 4 targets and the HoT is applied to an unlimited number of people (Including Kolto Residue). So if you have 4 people stacked up all together it heals for around 15000 if everyone sticks around for the full duration. However a commando is assigned to healing the tanks 99% of the time, and this means that the majority of your healing should be directed towards the tanks. Which is generally one target. So using an aoe heal like Kolto Bomb will only provide a max of about 3.5k healing done on the tank (Again assuming no crits) whereas Advanced Medical Probe, which takes roughly 1.2s to cast, is on a 7.5s CD (With the set bonus) costs 16 ammo cells and applies a 10% increase to armor along with a HoT (That ticks for more than the Kolto Bomb HoT), will quite happily heal for around 4.5-5.5k (Without critting). This is for the same ammo cost (and is actually at a reduced ammo cost because of the ammo cells regenerated whilst casting). I can go through and list how Medical Probe and Bacta Infusion are better single target healing abilities than Kolto Bomb but I think you get the point that if you are using AoE healing abilities when only one player is taking constant damage, then you are wasting your resources.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoBearsFan View Post
Furthermore while commandos ARE the best single target healers, simply relegating them to that role is nonsense. The fact is a well played commando has no trouble healing a group and in ops it is not the tank that only needs heals. While some groups in ops may prefer to assign healing responsibilities to say that commandos role should be single target heals only is short sighted and not fully utilizing the commando's potential.
If utilizing ALL the skills at your disposal as a commando (in a good rotation) then you should have no problem healing the tank AND the group.
Unless if you take two commandos into a raid, then your other healing parter (scoundrel or sage) will be much better at group healing than commandos. It is known, and you can verify this by looking at your tooltips, that commandos have weak group healing abilities compared to sages and scoundrels, but have better single target healing abilities, so why would you play the commando to it's weakness?
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
04.30.2013 , 11:06 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
I think you are confusing overall healing output, with useful healing output. Kolto Bomb costs 16 ammo cells and heals for around 2000-2500 on the main heal, and then around 1000 (Being very generous) on the HoT (This is assuming no crit). The main heal is applied to a maximum of 4 targets and the HoT is applied to an unlimited number of people (Including Kolto Residue). So if you have 4 people stacked up all together it heals for around 15000 if everyone sticks around for the full duration. However a commando is assigned to healing the tanks 99% of the time, and this means that the majority of your healing should be directed towards the tanks. Which is generally one target. So using an aoe heal like Kolto Bomb will only provide a max of about 3.5k healing done on the tank (Again assuming no crits) whereas Advanced Medical Probe, which takes roughly 1.2s to cast, is on a 7.5s CD (With the set bonus) costs 16 ammo cells and applies a 10% increase to armor along with a HoT (That ticks for more than the Kolto Bomb HoT), will quite happily heal for around 4.5-5.5k (Without critting). This is for the same ammo cost (and is actually at a reduced ammo cost because of the ammo cells regenerated whilst casting). I can go through and list how Medical Probe and Bacta Infusion are better single target healing abilities than Kolto Bomb but I think you get the point that if you are using AoE healing abilities when only one player is taking constant damage, then you are wasting your resources.



Unless if you take two commandos into a raid, then your other healing parter (scoundrel or sage) will be much better at group healing than commandos. It is known, and you can verify this by looking at your tooltips, that commandos have weak group healing abilities compared to sages and scoundrels, but have better single target healing abilities, so why would you play the commando to it's weakness?
I'm not confusing any thing and if you are using your KB on *only* your tank (as you stated in a previous post) than you are wasting KB. From your own math example 15000 hp heal (under ideal circumstances), or even lets say half of that, for 16 ammo and instant cast is still a great value heal. KB has a very short cool down and we and cast it more often than other classes can cast their AoE heals so in the end the healing done is not that far off. My KB is hitting often for over 3500 and the hot does more than 1k. Yes I agree the hot on KB is small but on 3+ raid members it starts adding up over the course of the fight. KB is commandos version of a group heal, but the fact that it is low ammo cost, instant cast, and low CD make it very effective for healing the group *if you know how to use it*.

Yes Trauma probe is the way to go on the tank. That's what I use it for. I even switch it to the tank that currently has agro. But I still throw out KB at almost every cool down on 2 or more raid members that are not full health. Usually this is on myself and RDPs or tank/melee clusters.
The problem is people like to pigeonhole commandos as "single target" healers (which yes, we are excellent at) but if you can only heal 1 target as a healer on a raid the you are useless. While we don't have the same hots/ group heals as sage/scoundrel but we still have an excellent group heal (KB) and our own HoT type skills (HS & TP). Simply relegating a commando to "healing the tank 99% of the time" is a waste of the commandos full potential. We are still *capable* group healers IN ADDITION to single target burst healing.

I think your guild utilizes it's healing classes different and that's OK and you have a different style of play and that's ok too, but I *really* think you are selling the Commando, and KB for that matter, short.

If you make effective use of HS, KB, TP, & BI, then you will have TONs of ammo and using AMP and MP wil become less of a necessity and will always be there ready to go for when that burst healing is needed.

Feel free to hold back on your KB, but I for one throw that green goo around every chance I get.
Bearsfan - Commando Healer / DPS
Chicago - Shadow Tank
BeÓrs - Scoundrel Healer
<The Jedi of Camelot>JawaSpanker Legacy ~ POT5 Server

bigheadbrandon's Avatar


bigheadbrandon
04.30.2013 , 11:22 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Afieri View Post
Sorry I couldn't help myself, Please don't throw it on every CD if you are healing an operation, You only need to throw it once every 15 seconds on the tank, and once at the beginning and at the end of supercharged cells to maximise uptime on charged barrier. This is all provided that your role in an operation is single target heals, if you are on group healing duty then you probably shouldn't be playing a commando :P.
uh, how did you learn everything wrong?
You shouldn't just be using KB on the tank every 15 seconds in an 8 or a 16man raid. You rotate it, once on the tank/melee, once on the ranged/healers if you're in an 8man and on 16man you always keep it on cd because there's always going to be raid damage you have no excuse not to help out healing through, regardless of being a tank healer or not. You can't afford to waste a heal that has no max target limit and also increases the entire raid's healing recieved.

Afieri's Avatar


Afieri
04.30.2013 , 09:53 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by bigheadbrandon View Post
uh, how did you learn everything wrong?
You shouldn't just be using KB on the tank every 15 seconds in an 8 or a 16man raid. You rotate it, once on the tank/melee, once on the ranged/healers if you're in an 8man and on 16man you always keep it on cd because there's always going to be raid damage you have no excuse not to help out healing through, regardless of being a tank healer or not. You can't afford to waste a heal that has no max target limit and also increases the entire raid's healing recieved.
In that case it must just be my team's choice of healing strategies. Because in the Kephess fight of EC NiM (4/4 8-man 3/4 16-man) we had one tank take all the trenchcutters, while the other tank took care of the warriors, and I can tell you right now, that if I were to be using kolto bomb and rotating it through as you suggested, the tank handling the trenchcutters would die. I'm not sure what strategy you use in EC NiM, but my job was to look after the two tanks while the sage looked after everyone else. Then after Keph hops down and starts his slashing spree, if I were to be helping out the sage by throwing kolto bomb on everyone that I could on CD, then the tank would die. But again, that is my team's healing strategy of having a single target healer on single targets and a group healer, healing the group of dps and healers, I know that some teams assign one healer 3 other people (1 tank and 2 dps) which would justify using kolto bomb on CD, but in fights that don't require a strict split of 2 groups I think that strategy is inefficient imo.
Warstalker Elai'a

Land rights for gay whales.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.01.2013 , 04:08 AM | #20
Meh, Merc/Commando is lagging only slightly behind the other two healing subclasses in PvE. It is in PvP where it is lacking. No top ranked team would bring a Merc/Commando healer rather than a Sorc & Operative of the same player skill level.

And if we want to boost Merc/Commando healing for PvP and not so much PvE, then the place to focus is on making certain cast abilities instant. The whole reason that Op healers are the king of the hill is that when crunch time comes all their healing is instant and costs no resources. Think about that. INSTANT. AND. NO RESOURCES. Giving Merc/Commando healers a small slice of that same pie is surely warranted.