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Slavery in Star Wars


Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
05.03.2013 , 02:09 PM | #91
Droids aren't as cost-effective as organic slaves are. A droid needs to be built, then maintained. The simple question is: Why build droids when you can subjugate a planet for free labor?
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FuryoftheStars's Avatar


FuryoftheStars
05.03.2013 , 02:24 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Spoiler
I understand all of this and yes, it works great on regular people.

Wookies, on the other hand, are not the type simply to bow down because a Star Destroyer is hovering over head, and it's firing upon the planet will just cause a planet wide revolt. As such, forcing them into slave labor was an attempt to break their spirits. And I'm not saying that it worked, either....

EDIT: pfft... accidentally quoted the wrong post first time through
EDIT2: Also note, the Empire cannot just leave a planet that in some way defies it. They wanted their own rulers at every world to show that they were the ones in control. Wookies would not have liked this. But they can't simply not put a ruler there because of possible revolt... if other worlds got wind of this.... See where I'm going with that? The labor to build the DS was simply an excuse in their case. In reality, it was a sign of dominance and control because if you leave even 1 spark of freedom somewhere, it will attempt to grow and spread.

EDIT3: Also want to make it clear, I'm not really trying to argue which is cheaper... droids or slaves. Personally, I believe it depends on the location in reference to manufacturing facilities, in part. I'm just saying that there are times where slave labor comes in for reasons other than cost.
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ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
05.03.2013 , 02:29 PM | #93
Ill start with Volition argument here:

Rome was based on slave labor, thus that means you had more slaves you were richer and more respectful in the Roman society, this is ROME 101 I don't know how you would take a Master in History without knowing the basics.

To beni, x and aurbere:

Droids besides common belief are more cost effective than organics because there are galactic corporations than can mass produce armies or them and some even have combat capacity.

Also into costs, you guys seem think you can have slaves in "rought" conditions but thats not the case, because you need slaves to do work so they have to be in condition to do the desired work you want them to be doing.

In Star Wars slaves are the more primitve way of acquiring labor, plain and simple because you have other ways: Droids, paid labor, or specialized labor. Palpatine enslaving kashyyk for wookies is an example Ill use too in this paltine did it to construct the deathstar more rapidly (he probably already used droids) combined droids and slaves might prove to be a efficient way appearently in Star Wars, but you have to consider slaves need supervision all the time to prevent revolts or riots, eventually all the benfit of having both slaves and droids is a simple ilusion because it just creates more power to the subjugated in essense creating the rebellion.

Third, Slaves or organics need more costs in the long run than droids, essentially droids can be built rapidly to suffice needs of an entire empire, even entire populations can live on droid labor and is well respected by civilized galaxy whille slavery of organics is looked down upon and its a mark of evil.

Volomon's Avatar


Volomon
05.03.2013 , 02:55 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
Ill start with Volition argument here:

Rome was based on slave labor, thus that means you had more slaves you were richer and more respectful in the Roman society, this is ROME 101 I don't know how you would take a Master in History without knowing the basics.
Never mind I misread the above, I guess this is agreeing with my previous points.

I want to point out who won the Droid War, a massive army of "slaves" (clone army).

Nuff said really, clearly these were unbelievably cheap or how else would it go by unnoticed for so long? They must have been easier to maintain as the Clone Army utterly devastated the far more technically and mechanically enhanced opponents or so we keep getting told. If these were so cheap and so easy to make why did they lose so horribly? I mean if there so easy to maintain and replace, why did they keep losing so much? If that was the scenario the Clone Army would eventually cease to exist as they whittle away their humanoid numbers against an infinitely replaceable army. Nothing can replace human(or humanoid) ingenuity, comprehension, ability to adapt, and of course ability to survive. Strangely enough the exact same things that make them better slaves.

Even further more there is a mission in which human intelligence is added to droid to make them better...by removing their brains and placing them in machines.

Proving in this debate that a living organism is the preferred resource, not to just win wars but to do nearly everything.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.03.2013 , 03:41 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by FuryoftheStars View Post
I understand all of this and yes, it works great on regular people.

Wookies, on the other hand, are not the type simply to bow down because a Star Destroyer is hovering over head, and it's firing upon the planet will just cause a planet wide revolt. As such, forcing them into slave labor was an attempt to break their spirits. And I'm not saying that it worked, either....

EDIT: pfft... accidentally quoted the wrong post first time through
EDIT2: Also note, the Empire cannot just leave a planet that in some way defies it. They wanted their own rulers at every world to show that they were the ones in control. Wookies would not have liked this. But they can't simply not put a ruler there because of possible revolt... if other worlds got wind of this.... See where I'm going with that? The labor to build the DS was simply an excuse in their case. In reality, it was a sign of dominance and control because if you leave even 1 spark of freedom somewhere, it will attempt to grow and spread.

EDIT3: Also want to make it clear, I'm not really trying to argue which is cheaper... droids or slaves. Personally, I believe it depends on the location in reference to manufacturing facilities, in part. I'm just saying that there are times where slave labor comes in for reasons other than cost.
I understand where you stand, just rattling out some more arguments.

Good points, however I think in terms of thought processes the idea of enslaving Wookiees for slave labor came first and the rest just followed. Given the fact that the planet was already Republic-aligned anyway they had to do something with it, and that it was actually the Trandoshans who suggested that the Empire enslave the Wookiees. And those Wookiees were pretty effective slave labor. I think it was less of an excuse and more of a necessity - the Empire needed slaves, Wookiees make for good slaves.

Also remember that Sidious had every intention of enslaving races of the galaxy from the word go, and likely planned on enslaving the Wookiees long before the Empire emerged. Neither was Wookiee slavery exactly a novetly of the time, the Trandoshans were notorious for enslaving Wookiees as were Czerka. Slavers just couldn't pass up such effective slave labor, so naturally the Empire would enslave Kashyyyk, regardless of their position as a threat to Imperial stability.

After all the Empire went out of their way to enslave the Talz, a species of very similar build. Which would suggest the Empire had real need of Wookiee slaves who, might I add, didn't only work on the DS, but countless other Imperial projects, they really were the backbone of Imperial slave labor.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.03.2013 , 04:06 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
Droids besides common belief are more cost effective than organics because there are galactic corporations than can mass produce armies or them and some even have combat capacity.

Also into costs, you guys seem think you can have slaves in "rought" conditions but thats not the case, because you need slaves to do work so they have to be in condition to do the desired work you want them to be doing.

In Star Wars slaves are the more primitve way of acquiring labor, plain and simple because you have other ways: Droids, paid labor, or specialized labor. Palpatine enslaving kashyyk for wookies is an example Ill use too in this paltine did it to construct the deathstar more rapidly (he probably already used droids) combined droids and slaves might prove to be a efficient way appearently in Star Wars, but you have to consider slaves need supervision all the time to prevent revolts or riots, eventually all the benfit of having both slaves and droids is a simple ilusion because it just creates more power to the subjugated in essense creating the rebellion.

Third, Slaves or organics need more costs in the long run than droids, essentially droids can be built rapidly to suffice needs of an entire empire, even entire populations can live on droid labor and is well respected by civilized galaxy whille slavery of organics is looked down upon and its a mark of evil.
  1. We're talking about labor here, not combat effectiveness which the Clone Wars has proven organics have an inherent advantage in. Yes they can be mass produced, but that costs a lot of credits and resources regardless, something you don't seem to take into account. Furthermore, there are far more organics already in existence across the galaxy than there are droids. Organics have essentially already been mass produced.

  2. Your ignoring the fact that in many cases, slavery is actually the cheaper alternative to managing a population. Slaves need supervision but disgruntled populations need a whole lot more, and that's on top of the costs of providing for them in the first place. You have yet to address this issue.

  3. We have already explained at great length how droids are not more cost effective in the long run. You cannot simply ignore those arguments with arbitrary statements!

  4. Slavery may be frowned upon by more developed nations as primitve and uncivilised but ultimately its more effective. Droids cost more money to aquire, paid labor (clue's in the name) is paid and therefore costs more money than slaves, specialized labor is freely available in the form of slaves given the fact that the Empire enslaved ship-builders, cloners, miners etc. to perform specialized jobs at no extra cost. Droids are incapable of doing many of these tasks,

  5. The remainder of your arguments are lacking in any evidence to support them. For example, how is Palpatine using slave labor an example of ill use? Among the successes built on the backs of slaves include, two Death Stars - massive moon sized battle-stations possessing firepower unequaled in the history warfare, the Maw Installation - a top secret research center hidden within a cluster of black holes and Imperial Star Destroyers - the most powerful battleships of their time. All this was under control of a colossal Empire that had countless resources at its disposal - resources extracted by slaves. I'd call that a pretty effective use of slave labor.

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
05.03.2013 , 05:21 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
  1. We're talking about labor here, not combat effectiveness which the Clone Wars has proven organics have an inherent advantage in. Yes they can be mass produced, but that costs a lot of credits and resources regardless, something you don't seem to take into account. Furthermore, there are far more organics already in existence across the galaxy than there are droids. Organics have essentially already been mass produced.
  1. I wouldn't so sure about that, droids can be built faster than having kids, thats fact.

    Quote:
  2. Your ignoring the fact that in many cases, slavery is actually the cheaper alternative to managing a population. Slaves need supervision but disgruntled populations need a whole lot more, and that's on top of the costs of providing for them in the first place. You have yet to address this issue.
Cheaper alternative? managing disgruntled population are you serious?

Let me put it more simple, when "you" conquer a planet its easier to not enslave and actually make it part of your empire by allowing the population to work on normal conditions it actually pays more than having slaves.

Quote:
  • We have already explained at great length how droids are not more cost effective in the long run. You cannot simply ignore those arguments with arbitrary statements!
  • I have brought my arguments on how droids are more cost efficient, you just don't agree but you can't miss the facts, that there are more arguments supporting that droids work better than slaves.

    Quote:
  • Slavery may be frowned upon by more developed nations as primitve and uncivilised but ultimately its more effective. Droids cost more money to aquire, paid labor (clue's in the name) is paid and therefore costs more money than slaves, specialized labor is freely available in the form of slaves given the fact that the Empire enslaved ship-builders, cloners, miners etc. to perform specialized jobs at no extra cost. Droids are incapable of doing many of these tasks,
  • Let me explain to you the basics when you enslave a miner or a cloner or any other species you want them to keep producing their work, but forced-labor doesn't apply here because they might even do it wrong and you never know. instead Mining droids, Cloning droids, even repair droids can do all this tasks more efficiently.

    Quote:
  • The remainder of your arguments are lacking in any evidence to support them. For example, how is Palpatine using slave labor an example of ill use? Among the successes built on the backs of slaves include, two Death Stars - massive moon sized battle-stations possessing firepower unequaled in the history warfare, the Maw Installation - a top secret research center hidden within a cluster of black holes and Imperial Star Destroyers - the most powerful battleships of their time. All this was under control of a colossal Empire that had countless resources at its disposal - resources extracted by slaves. I'd call that a pretty effective use of slave labor.
  • [COLOR="Lime"]
    I already told you re-read earlier posts please beni, I said is likely Palpatine was using both a mix of slaves and droids to finish the death star more quickly even his star destroyers probably are made by automated machines in large scale (big droids) than humans or aliens.

    Slaves aren't the best workforce unless you are a primitive Roman, sorry in Star Wars technology is so advanced there is no need for slave labor

    Beniboybling's Avatar


    Beniboybling
    05.04.2013 , 03:42 AM | #98
    Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
    I wouldn't so sure about that, droids can be built faster than having kids, thats fact.



    Cheaper alternative? managing disgruntled population are you serious?

    Let me put it more simple, when "you" conquer a planet its easier to not enslave and actually make it part of your empire by allowing the population to work on normal conditions it actually pays more than having slaves.



    I have brought my arguments on how droids are more cost efficient, you just don't agree but you can't miss the facts, that there are more arguments supporting that droids work better than slaves.



    Let me explain to you the basics when you enslave a miner or a cloner or any other species you want them to keep producing their work, but forced-labor doesn't apply here because they might even do it wrong and you never know. instead Mining droids, Cloning droids, even repair droids can do all this tasks more efficiently.


    [COLOR="Lime"]
    I already told you re-read earlier posts please beni, I said is likely Palpatine was using both a mix of slaves and droids to finish the death star more quickly even his star destroyers probably are made by automated machines in large scale (big droids) than humans or aliens.

    Slaves aren't the best workforce unless you are a primitive Roman, sorry in Star Wars technology is so advanced there is no need for slave labor
    1. Droids can be produced faster than kids? That's nice but ignoring the actual argument, that there are already billions upon billions of organics existing in the universe, all of these are producing organics at a faster rate than any droid factory could ever produce. The amount of resources required to build as many droids as there are organics would be colossal in fact that amount of resource likely doesn't even exist in the Star Wars universe.

    2. Again, you are making arbitrary statements without providing any evidence. You can make it as simple as you like but until you support your statements they are invalid. Take Onderon, taken by the Sepratists which led to a civilian rebellion which cost them the planet and the armies they had stationed their. Take the gosh darn Alliance to Restore the Republic, they were entirely made up of 'disgruntled populations' - are you saying they were not a costly threat?

    3. Your arguments have been countered by more than just me, and you have failed to provide an adequate response.

    4. But at a far greater cost, which outweighs any mistakes an organic might make. Which at least in the case of force labor would not be a factor anyway. Oh and there are no such things as cloning and ship-building droids. Assistants perhaps but nothing more.

    5. The fact that the Empire goes out of its way to use slave labor would imply that it works. Concerning the Death Star, yes of course it was built partly with droids because organics cannot operate in space. But it was a mainly if not completely organic force that extracted and transported the materials. Note that I am not saying they are the best workforce in terms of everything, but they are concerning menial labor (note them meaning of menial - requiring little skill).

    Maaruin's Avatar


    Maaruin
    05.04.2013 , 04:42 AM | #99
    Another thing about the "Why not droids?" discussion:

    An organic slave can do everything an organic worker can and vice versa. The slave offers more control and is in most cases probably less expensive, while the organic worker requires less administration (he buys his own food and accommodation). Naturally, some would prefer free workers and others would prefer slaves, if they had the option.

    So the question "Why don't use droids instead of slaves?" becomes "Why don't use droids instead of organics in general?"
    Organic workers are used in the Star Wars universe, even in jobs a droid would also be capable of. So I would assume that there are some jobs in which organics are less expensive and/or more efficient then droids. I would also assume this depends on the local economic and cultural context*.

    *for example, the Sith Empire which has relied on conquest and slavery for over a thousand years probably has a far less developed droid industry than the Republic. In the Republic on the other hand, slaves are an illegal luxury good. In Hutt space it seems to depend on the Hutt and probably the business sector he is involved in.

    Edit: Later on, the Galactic Empire: Slaves as luxury good were allowed. In addition they used slavery as a suppression strategy for entire worlds/species. (I think in the Imperial era there weren't many companies using slave labor to a large extend. The government did, which supports the theory that it was a suppression strategy.)
    "I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
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    XisscVekno's Avatar


    XisscVekno
    05.10.2013 , 03:24 PM | #100
    Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
    Ill start with Volition argument here:

    Rome was based on slave labor, thus that means you had more slaves you were richer and more respectful in the Roman society, this is ROME 101 I don't know how you would take a Master in History without knowing the basics.

    To beni, x and aurbere:

    Droids besides common belief are more cost effective than organics because there are galactic corporations than can mass produce armies or them and some even have combat capacity.

    Also into costs, you guys seem think you can have slaves in "rought" conditions but thats not the case, because you need slaves to do work so they have to be in condition to do the desired work you want them to be doing.

    In Star Wars slaves are the more primitve way of acquiring labor, plain and simple because you have other ways: Droids, paid labor, or specialized labor. Palpatine enslaving kashyyk for wookies is an example Ill use too in this paltine did it to construct the deathstar more rapidly (he probably already used droids) combined droids and slaves might prove to be a efficient way appearently in Star Wars, but you have to consider slaves need supervision all the time to prevent revolts or riots, eventually all the benfit of having both slaves and droids is a simple ilusion because it just creates more power to the subjugated in essense creating the rebellion.

    Third, Slaves or organics need more costs in the long run than droids, essentially droids can be built rapidly to suffice needs of an entire empire, even entire populations can live on droid labor and is well respected by civilized galaxy whille slavery of organics is looked down upon and its a mark of evil.
    And to mass produce those droids would cost more than rounding up 100 organics to be sold into slavery. You are forgetting every thing that needs to go into making that droid and keeping it in good working order. best example is look at a computer or a car. Both of these are mass produced and both require massive amounts of materials, and both cost more to make than buying a loaf of bread and water. This is basic stuff. And the thought you can't keep organics in rough living conditions, I think you need to go look at history, it proves in every way you can and it's effective.

    Organic slaves will always be cheaper than Droids. ALWAYS. The up keep cost is way more than the every day cost of Organics. Take your handheld game, no where near the amount of sophistication of a droid, but still the same basic principal. it has maybe a battery life of a few hours of constant play, you then have to plug it in a charger or in the wall, which costs power, which costs money. A droid would multiply that cost by hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

    To prevent revolts, that's already been done with little to no cost already, look at the Egyptian slave set up, liquid bread. It had alcohol in it to passify the slaves as well as all the nutrients to keep them healthy. So that's already been solved.

    Also, this debate isn't about morality. It's about cost efficiency which we well know just looking at today's society has no bearing on morality what so ever.
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    and freedom has the highest cost of them all.
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