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Huttball Championships - Rebels vs Separatists

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Huttball Championships - Rebels vs Separatists

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.24.2013 , 10:40 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

Thoughts?
Hmmm This is a good question actually I believe Galen and Luke deffinately have enough agility I would put both on par with ventress in this regard but would give greivous the greater agility do to his body. Unfortunately the seps i dont feel have enough power in their agile members unlike the rebels. The rebels power players are also their mobile ones while the power ones of the seps are also the less maneuverable not to mention i very much see the rebels controlling the feild of battle with great efficiency. Let me see if i can explain.

Already i have said that Luke and Galen are the most agile. Rohm is used to trench war fare and gladatorial combat something this arena will feel very much like. His most common strategy was using telekentics to ensnare opponents in traps or coral people where he wanted them. R2 has sensors that can tell his team and himself where every one is at all times, and of course we have to consider the support team the rebels themselves many of whom were graduates of the imperial academy having some of the greatest conventional military tactics taught to them but what sets them apart is also their theoretical tactical knowledge and often unconventional awnsers and trap setting which they have found to be perfect counters to much of the empire. This is part of the reason they often were able to succeed even with 10 to 1 odds or worse against them. Half the seperatist team is made of droids who are completely incapable of unconventional thought since no droid can ever go beyond the basis of its programming. Then durge who has on several occassions walked straight into a trap almost willingly which has caused his opponenet to injure him and get away and is actually what would come to cause his death at the hands of anakin. And ventress as far as i can tell is one to just go for brute strength and is often times over confident with her abilities. The only 2 i feel are tactical enough to potentially counter the rebel's actions are dooku who, in his old age, while nible and having good foot work does not have the agility to take care of it and greivous who isnt likely to set trap but he isnt likely to fall for them (unless his arogance gets the best of him somthing that is known for happenning on occasion) and is easily shut down through the use of telekenetics. With people like this in an arena that supports such trap setting I see the rebels cutting down the mobility of the seperatists through clever coraling and trap setting.

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
04.24.2013 , 05:59 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

Thoughts?
I think, the rebs have extra push when it comes to a down right battle, while separatist have agility? I don't think even they have that, even then they only have it for a limited time then they would tire.

Rebels win this

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
04.24.2013 , 06:51 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
I think, the rebs have extra push when it comes to a down right battle, while separatist have agility? I don't think even they have that, even then they only have it for a limited time then they would tire.

Rebels win this
I don't fully understand when people say the Rebels win in battle. Is Luke ZOMG powerful? Yes. Are any of their other players? Not so much.

R2-D2 doesn't even fight. So they're crippled from the start in combat.

Dooku specializes in usage of the Force, which he beats both Starkiller and Rahm in. He can deflect Starkiller's lightning, break through Rahm's Force defense, and move objects much larger than either have been shown to do (don't bring up the Star Destroy, that doesn't count).

Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.

Durge is a powerhouse that doesn't even need to worry about lightsabers. Despite assumptions that he is slow due to his size, his Wookieepedia entry cites that he can keep pace with Jedi Knights. He also possesses energy shields that deflect lightsabers and flamethrowers, an infamously effective weapon against Jedi and lightsabers. He could very well charge up to Luke, Starkiller, or Rahm and crush them under his shielded boot.

Grievous would best Rahm in combat easily, seeing as Rahm's form is meant to strictly face one opponent, not four different lightsabers. He'd be able to distract and/or intimidate Luke in much the same way as he did to Obi-wan, holding him off for the seconds needed for his team to score.


Really, I don't understand how Seps are less skilled in combat. They're not. They're also plenty agile, considering that Grievous, Ventress, and Durge have all proven to be extraordinarily fast. Also, one does not tire when they have the Force, robotic legs, or the strength of a mountain.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.24.2013 , 07:06 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.
Jar'Kai is the term for dual-wielding. Her lightsaber form is Makashi. Which means that she uses Makashi as a "Jar'Kai tactic"
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
04.24.2013 , 07:14 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I don't fully understand when people say the Rebels win in battle. Is Luke ZOMG powerful? Yes. Are any of their other players? Not so much.

R2-D2 doesn't even fight. So they're crippled from the start in combat.
R2-D2 besides common belief is fully armed and capable of fighting, we see his gadgets in action in the movies some are:
Flamethrower
Flight booster
Electric discharge
Storage (either personal weapon or other user weapon)
Quote:
Dooku specializes in usage of the Force, which he beats both Starkiller and Rahm in. He can deflect Starkiller's lightning, break through Rahm's Force defense, and move objects much larger than either have been shown to do (don't bring up the Star Destroy, that doesn't count).
While dooku is very skilled and uses finesse to overwhelm opponents he has a weakness to either: Brute raw power or exotic style he doesn't know of.

StarKiller as I dislike in saying this, uses raw power combined with force powers to overwhelm opponents he might as well kill dooku easily, Rahm Kota is the perfect example of Dooku's weaknesses as Kota uses Juyo agressively while taking a defense stance he might aswell kill dooku easily.
Quote:
Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.
One word: Luke, he would be taking of Ventress first then help with either Grievous or Dooku, he is team leader
Quote:
Durge is a powerhouse that doesn't even need to worry about lightsabers. Despite assumptions that he is slow due to his size, his Wookieepedia entry cites that he can keep pace with Jedi Knights. He also possesses energy shields that deflect lightsabers and flamethrowers, an infamously effective weapon against Jedi and lightsabers. He could very well charge up to Luke, Starkiller, or Rahm and crush them under his shielded boot.
Durge is the separatist ace card, but he can be overwhelmed by likes of Obiwan?

Anyway, he fall in the floor once either Luke hits him eith R2-D2 to finish him off.

Quote:
Grievous would best Rahm in combat easily, seeing as Rahm's form is meant to strictly face one opponent, not four different lightsabers. He'd be able to distract and/or intimidate Luke in much the same way as he did to Obi-wan, holding him off for the seconds needed for his team to score.
Not, Grievous isn't in the same league as powerful force sensitives, he might aswell run for his life to be killed by Lukes saber.

Quote:
Really, I don't understand how Seps are less skilled in combat. They're not. They're also plenty agile, considering that Grievous, Ventress, and Durge have all proven to be extraordinarily fast. Also, one does not tire when they have the Force, robotic legs, or the strength of a mountain.
Its just the outter image, they aren't strong they are quite weak, while they have "their moments" im sure good guys coordianting will eventually triumph and win the match.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
04.24.2013 , 08:05 PM | #66
See how the answer to everything is Luke? He can't be everyplace at once, and if he truly is running around helping others or defeating the Seps 1v1, then he isn't scoring. See: loyalty to teammates.

Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
StarKiller as I dislike in saying this, uses raw power combined with force powers to overwhelm opponents he might as well kill dooku easily, Rahm Kota is the perfect example of Dooku's weaknesses as Kota uses Juyo agressively while taking a defense stance he might aswell kill dooku easily.
I don't understand your justification for Starkiller easily killing Dooku. Dooku can easily deflect lightning, possibly even back at Starkliller, while Starkiller has never been shown to possess this ability. He is also far more skilled with telepathic powers. You provide no reason why Starkiller would easily kill Dooku, other then "raw power."

Rahm Kota focuses on defense during combat, despite his Juyo form. By definition, defense does not kill people easily. Not only that, but Dooku often uses Force powers during combat that could defeat Rahm without even engaging him in a lightsaber duel. (Note what he did to Obi-wan, a far superior Jedi to Rahm)
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
04.24.2013 , 09:52 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
See how the answer to everything is Luke? He can't be everyplace at once, and if he truly is running around helping others or defeating the Seps 1v1, then he isn't scoring. See: loyalty to teammates.
As already proven in earlier posts, loyalty would be enough to keep baddies at bay as more good guys would be left standing.
Quote:
I don't understand your justification for Starkiller easily killing Dooku. Dooku can easily deflect lightning, possibly even back at Starkliller, while Starkiller has never been shown to possess this ability. He is also far more skilled with telepathic powers. You provide no reason why Starkiller would easily kill Dooku, other then "raw power."
Ok, in canon Starkiller was trained by Vader even though he never faced someone similar to Dooku, he defeated vader that says enough in raw power and force powers.
Quote:
Rahm Kota focuses on defense during combat, despite his Juyo form. By definition, defense does not kill people easily. Not only that, but Dooku often uses Force powers during combat that could defeat Rahm without even engaging him in a lightsaber duel. (Note what he did to Obi-wan, a far superior Jedi to Rahm)
I said Kota would best him because he is blind, he wouldn't see Dookus finesse and rather focus on the force, combined with a defense style he would be able to sense openings in Makashi making him turn agressive only in those times, killing Dooku.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.25.2013 , 01:16 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post


Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.





See how the answer to everything is Luke? He can't be everyplace at once, and if he truly is running around helping others or defeating the Seps 1v1, then he isn't scoring. See: loyalty to teammates.



I don't understand your justification for Starkiller easily killing Dooku. Dooku can easily deflect lightning, possibly even back at Starkliller, while Starkiller has never been shown to possess this ability. He is also far more skilled with telepathic powers. You provide no reason why Starkiller would easily kill Dooku, other then "raw power."

Rahm Kota focuses on defense during combat, despite his Juyo form. By definition, defense does not kill people easily. Not only that, but Dooku often uses Force powers during combat that could defeat Rahm without even engaging him in a lightsaber duel. (Note what he did to Obi-wan, a far superior Jedi to Rahm)
As far as starkiller is concerned I agree with you in some points and disagree with others firstly that i dont believe he is as powerful as people believe see my previous post on page 3 5th post down starting at 3rd paragraph. That being said Galen would be just as capable of blocking lightning with his saber as Luke is and telekentic wise Dooku has not shown skill beyond Galen I would put them at a very even lvl in that regards. In saber combat (which is what i believe a battle between these 2 would come down to) Galen uses Djem So and was trained in it by the same man that defeated Dooku while it is not the same exact style it is similar enough and Galen has comparable power to RotS Anakin as such I see Dooku doing about as well against galen as he did vs Anakin, I dont believe he will get owned as badly as i believe Luke will own him but he will still get beat pretty fast this does mean Luke doesnt have to take care of Dooku. He can take care of Ventress move on to help with durge while starkiller handles dooku and rohm handles greivous as soon as starkiller is done with dooku he can help rohm handle greivous. Who i believe would sooner or later start to over come Rohm, but knowing Rohm he would likely try to buy as much time with his telekentics, something Greivous has little defense against lacking force sensitivity, until help would arive likely in the form of Galen and around the same time Galen takes out Greivous using force crush to stun greivous and force lightning to finish him. Most likely around this time durge would go down any number of ways from being moved into a trap or having his head chopped off by Luke. Luke isnt the end all awnser to everything the rebels have.

Actually the real end all for the rebels is going to be their tactics as i have already said above this arena is something that would play off their strengths greatly. Not to mention the opponents they are facing are again right up the rebels alley they use largely conventional tactics half the team completely incapable of artistic thought and the other half full of ruthless opponents prone to arrogance something the rebels have used to their advantage incredibly often the seps are playing the rebs game they just dont know it yet.


P.S. I honostly knew the rebels would appear to be the under dogs to these forums the moment this match was set up and not because the rebels arent capable of winning or arent incredibly powerful or agile or incapable of tactical thought, because obviously they are, but instead more because of recent media. There is little recent films or visual media at all showing the abilities of the rebels. The flashy clone wars series just looks more impressive then a Novel (something a lot of people arent going to pick up especially older novel's) so people will be fooled to think that these characters are just better simply do to lack of knowledge or to misinformation based on the flashyness of the newer stuff vs the more technilogically limited stuff of the older stuff.

P.S.S I can not believe i have to defend Luke AGAIN Ventress lasts against Luke even less time then Dooku does as her cannon ending is still death by Anakin who at the time was weaker then he was in RotS once again Luke mirrored vader who is anakin Luke ends ventress in 5 seconds flat. Also if we really want to argue Greivous vs Luke or Durge vs Luke let me know i have been leaving that alone since i figured i was done defending RotJ Lukes abilities but if i need continue I will.


P.S.S.S This one is for you beni. Really got to thank you for putting this match together its been hella entertaining and other that i also have to thank you for helping me get accross the information i was trying to give. I know my posts are generally not the simplist to read and some people seem to be skimming them rather the reading them in their entirety so i want to thank you for simplifying some of my arguments into slightly more cohesive and less wall of txt style.

Mathemagica's Avatar


Mathemagica
04.25.2013 , 02:32 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

Thoughts?
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. And if I think about the huttball matches I played I noticed the following: Power is only useful for defence. When attacking, killing an opponent potentially places him between your ball carrier and the goalline (the exception are healers, which we don't have here).
Now the separatists have rather powerful, agile fighters (Ventress and Grievous) who can defeat the ball carrier (if necessary by outnumbering him. Ever tried to block six attacks at the same time?)
The rebels have only one really fast fighter and that is Galen. (What Galen can do in TFU is beyond anything Luke does in Episode 6 if we talk about agility and flexibility.) One fast carrier isn't enough, if the enemy has two fast defenders who can catch up.
Also: R2 can fight, but he has no way to defend himself against anybody (except for hiding). Therefore if 2 of the droids are taking care of him (as I suggested for the separatists) he can't do a lot. Therefore, while the rebels do have 2 very powerful fighters, their powerful fighters are still outnumbered ( 4 vs 3) which is a problem if anyone of them has to carry the ball or if they have to stop the separatists ball carrier.

So my vote goes for agility in this one.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.25.2013 , 02:55 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Mathemagica View Post
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. And if I think about the huttball matches I played I noticed the following: Power is only useful for defence. When attacking, killing an opponent potentially places him between your ball carrier and the goalline (the exception are healers, which we don't have here).
Now the separatists have rather powerful, agile fighters (Ventress and Grievous) who can defeat the ball carrier (if necessary by outnumbering him. Ever tried to block six attacks at the same time?)
The rebels have only one really fast fighter and that is Galen. (What Galen can do in TFU is beyond anything Luke does in Episode 6 if we talk about agility and flexibility.) One fast carrier isn't enough, if the enemy has two fast defenders who can catch up.
Also: R2 can fight, but he has no way to defend himself against anybody (except for hiding). Therefore if 2 of the droids are taking care of him (as I suggested for the separatists) he can't do a lot. Therefore, while the rebels do have 2 very powerful fighters, their powerful fighters are still outnumbered ( 4 vs 3) which is a problem if anyone of them has to carry the ball or if they have to stop the separatists ball carrier.

So my vote goes for agility in this one.
Got to look at episode 5 for a lot of Lukes agility feats honostly. And i would not count on ventress as a strong fighter both galen and luke should be able to easily take her seeing as they are the ones likely to carry the ball one of which being a mirror of vader (who killed ventress as anakin before RotS in her still only ending) the other of which was trained by vader both using djem so. Honostly my experience is a powerful enough team doesnt need to be agile and can keep the opponent litterally trapped at thier endzone in a lot of ranked matches its almost always the ball carrier that refuses to go down that makes it and i dont see the seps really having any awnser for Luke and in some ways not much of an awnser for Galen either. The only way to take down tough tanks in ranked matches is clever trap control which as ihave said before the rebels have that in spades while the seps just dont.


Also again i feel like everyone is writing off R2 here and writing off the rebel special ops i have already covered their strats and if the 2 droids are off chasing poor R2 then the rebels are actually the ones with the numbers advantage meaning they could clear mid even faster with most every one still alive and get to the enemy endzone just to take out most if not all the opposing team on the way to the end zone and on the way back pretty much making it to where the seps never make it past mid.