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Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes
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TW-Cool's Avatar


TW-Cool
04.27.2013 , 10:05 AM | #81
I'll pop in again on this thread and say I'd like to see Balance Shadows back the way things were. I still like to do shadow strike in my rotation, but I dont think it's as effective as things used to be. Force In Balance seems to cost more force when using now. I kinda miss the old FiB of it costing less and hitting 3 enemies.... If you think people want more AoE then make it a skill point upgrade to FiB to raise the force cost to hit 2 more enemies. I want to remain a happy Balance Shadow. It's who my character is!

And that Phase Walk needs to be replaced with a dps ability... please? Let me double project if sentinels can double saber throw.

Dallayna's Avatar


Dallayna
04.27.2013 , 10:13 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Phasewalk is a great tool for pvp. Especially when it comes to defense duty in warzones like Civil War.

But we're already very strong when it comes to defense duty. And a teleport really doesn't suit the star wars setting. I can forgive the Rakata tech on Belsavis, but only because Belsavis is such a big, boring planet. I'd rather have seen some new AoE... like the one they hinted at in some vid, so long ago?

Also, because it bears repeating; please revert the changes to balance! Thank you.
So.... One guy out of how many people who play this game? And only for PvP in one arena.

And even he doesn't even like the power.

Wow. Just. Wow. No offense or anything but. Well. Most people actually have to try for that level of fail.


And, you know, it's really a huge shame too because there are some really good things that came with 2.0 and for the Consular as well. I mean, they brought Holiday back- that was awesome but, did they really have to bend Shadows over the table like this?

sainik's Avatar


sainik
04.27.2013 , 10:59 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by TW-Cool View Post
And that Phase Walk needs to be replaced with a dps ability... please? Let me double project if sentinels can double saber throw.
Lol, they don't even want balance shadows to use project, do you think they will give us double project ?

Joking aside, its a great idea. Some kind of area project (area rock throw) or an double saber channeled aoe (like the one in video) would be nice. I could even live with phasewalk if the other changes were not so bad.

Getting back to balance shadow, recap of some of the counterarguments to the ones made in this blog:

1. Difficulty is not an issue. Even if it is, there needs to be a variety in skill caps and you need to interest players of all types.

2. Maybe DPS nerfs are ok (since they get balanced out in the long run), but changes in playstyle are definitely not ok.

3. Balance shadows need to feel like shadows. From your blog:

Quote:
Worse, it wasn’t necessary. We’re fully capable of providing the same damage boost to players without requiring them to master additional gameplay.
This generic argument will be valid to reduce any class to just one or two skills. Its particularly not a convincing argument when it changes the fundamental feel of the spec.

Hoping you guys are taking notice. Looking forward to a reworked and better balance spec

TW-Cool's Avatar


TW-Cool
04.27.2013 , 11:18 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by sainik View Post
Lol, they don't even want balance shadows to use project, do you think they will give us double project ?
Yeah, maybe the name 'double project' was a bad choice lol. Call it "Enhanced Telekenitic Throw" where it hurdles several medium sized rocks into an area or a cone of damage area.

I still use telekinetic throw as a balance shadow. While project is only fun against trash.

sainik's Avatar


sainik
04.27.2013 , 11:25 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by TW-Cool View Post
Yeah, maybe the name 'double project' was a bad choice lol. Call it "Enhanced Telekenitic Throw" where it hurdles several medium sized rocks into an area or a cone of damage area.

I still use telekinetic throw as a balance shadow. While project is only fun against trash.
Yep its a good idea. Would be nice to see aoe.

Neamhan's Avatar


Neamhan
04.27.2013 , 12:23 PM | #86
Phase Walk is terrible. It's nigh useless. What would have been useful to all specs would have been a 30m range Shadow Step, which teleports you directly behind the target. Give it a 45 second cooldown. The Shadow Shelter buff can just apply for 10 or 15 seconds to any ally within 5m of the teleport.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
04.27.2013 , 04:50 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by Neamhan View Post
Phase Walk is terrible. It's nigh useless. What would have been useful to all specs would have been a 30m range Shadow Step, which teleports you directly behind the target. Give it a 45 second cooldown. The Shadow Shelter buff can just apply for 10 or 15 seconds to any ally within 5m of the teleport.
I don't think Shadows need another gap closer or more mobility. To be honest, when comparing my 1.7 Balance Shadow to my Lethality Operative, it feels like my Operative is still lacking. Shadows are pretty overpowered, fundamentally (for pvp). Force Shroud is basically a better version of the CC-breaker, if used wisely. Force Speed is the best ability when it comes to mobility (agent roll is nice but it cannot really be used as a gap closer, it's just an escape tool and a tool for objectives). Force Wave is a nice knockback; the middle ground between commando's concussion charge and guardians force push.

The only thing we lack is AoE. Sure, Balance Shadow's Force in Balance was buffed (unnecessarily so. It was one of our strongest single-target attacks, having it hit 3 targets was a luxury. Anything more is just plain retarded. I get that smash hits 5 targets, but smash has a shorter radius and requires the knight to be in the fray). Whirling Blow is pathetic, even with Lambaste. What I wouldn't give for a melee version of Death from Above.

Neamhan's Avatar


Neamhan
04.28.2013 , 12:29 PM | #88
It wasn't so much a 'this is what we need' suggestion as a 'this would be much more useful' suggestion while keeping the same teleport theme.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
04.29.2013 , 12:19 AM | #89
http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/...interview.html

Quote:
Austin: Changing the way Madness Assassins play was not an issue we took or take lightly. Changing numbers is a big enough deal for some players – changing gameplay is a huge deal for even more players.
Consider it a huge deal.

Quote:
In the case of Shock, its contribution to Madness’s gameplay was effectively the Unearthed Knowledge buff it provided (which is to say, it provided no gameplay). Shock itself wasn’t very powerful or important, and it really didn’t need to be shoe-horned into Madness’s priorities. Additionally, a lot of the Force-management issues Madness Assassins complained about were caused by using Shock, which we encouraged players to do because of a few unnecessary and ill-fitting skills.
What on earth are you talking about? It provided gameplay. We had to use shock every 20s in order to boost our melee damage. The problem with Unearthed Knowledge was, as you've acknowledged, the heavy force cost on Shock... and the fact that the 10% melee boost was too minor. Some people said it was a DPS loss because the talent was simply too weak. The problem wasn't that people didn't want to use Shock, the problem was that the incentive was just not enough.

Personally I used it. I thought the challenge fun. If I starved myself by using Shock like an idiot, then I had to suffer the repercussions. I played mostly PvP, so having a reason to use Shock (aside from being force damage with a 10m range) was nice.

Quote:
The bigger design problem was Maul, or more specifically, the Duplicity skill. In general, we really don’t like providing gameplay-altering skills as “low hanging fruit” near the bottom of a skill tree. These skills are usually a problem because they alter your established gameplay after-the-fact. By that I mean, once you’ve fully invested in a skill tree (let’s say 36 points in Madness), you have a 100% full and complete arsenal, skill set, and gameplay. Your leftover points should be used to reinforce and bolster that gameplay – not alter or further complicate it.
It makes sense when you put it that way...

But have you actually seen how useless Maul is without Duplicity? Can you imagine how confusing it must be for new players to reach level 10 and obtain Maul only to realize that the skill is useless? When I played during the beta weekend I actually levelled an Assassin. I specced tank, and I tried to involve Maul somehow but I found that it was detrimental to my damage output. When your game finally launched and I levelled my Jedi Shadow for the first time, I placed points into Infiltration Tactics (Duplicity) from the get-go, even though I was going for tank.

As a new player, the only reason I could find for Shadow Strike (Maul) was with the Infiltration Tactics proc. Placing one talent point into Infiltration Tactics was enough to make the ability justifiable. So where is the design flaw, really? Operatives, they all get backstab. Healers can use it, just like Concealmet and Lethality can. But Maul is nigh useless unless it comes with a proc. There's your flaw. Infiltration Tactics should've been BASELINE, and Infiltration should have gotten a talent that increases it's damage by 30%, and tanks could have gotten the talent that allows for it to be used from any angle.


Quote:
This isn’t so much a balance concern as it is a usability and complexity concern. There is a limit to the number of abilities in a priority list or rotation that most players feel comfortable with. Slapping more on top of that, which some players may or may not even choose to do, makes things difficult for us to balance and expand upon, and it makes things unnecessarily complex for players.
Madness Assassins had 9 bindings they had to use actively for damage: Creeping Terror, Discharge, Death Field. Those were on a rotation, of sorts. Shock every 20s if specced for it. Then we had a priority order; Assassinate > Maul > Crushing Darkness > Thrash > Saber Strike.

9 is a lot when compared to other classes, but we were never constricted by any cooldowns, aside from the one on Death Field. All we had to look for was two procs in our buff list. Aside from that, once we had our dots up our rotation was pretty much thrash > saber strike, whichever your force allowed for. That is not difficult gameplay.

On my lethality operative, I have 9 bindings that I actively use for damage;
Hidden Strike, Corrosive Grenade, Corrosive Dart, Shiv, Backstab, Explosive Probe, Weakening Blast, Cull, Rifle Shot.

And in my opinion, lethality was always a great deal more challenging than Balance Shadows were. Because of how their resource works, you have to be extremely careful about when and how you use certain abilities. If you drain your energy once, you can save yourself with Adrenaline Probe (though preferably, you'd save Adrenaline Probe as a conscious decision in order to do burst). You also had to keep track of Stim Boost (which has been simplified, granted. A welcome change) and Tactical Advantage. Not to mention, Operatives resource was very restrictive, and they had to juggle several cooldowns in their head while pumping out damage. Everything but Cull and Rifle Shot had a CD. Heck, in some scenarios I found myself filling with Overload Shot, simply because I had probably done something wrong and the energy allowed me to use a more expensive move whilst everything else was on cooldown.

No, Bioware, in contrast, Balance Shadows were very easy to play, so your argument falls short.


Quote:
By contrast, we can provide players with skill choices that give the same overall effect without the additional complexity and without requiring players to master additional gameplay. Of course, some players have already mastered that gameplay and don’t see it as a problem. We’re not aiming to fix things for those players, and for those players, it might appear as though we’re messing with a good thing. Instead, our fixes aim to address the skill tree for players that passed up on Madness and haven’t ever considered it because it’s too daunting. To be clear, this is important so that all skill trees feel like they’re part of the same game and that they are all equally viable choices to players that want to try out what each skill tree has to offer.
You were messing with a good thing. For PvE you can change things however you want, but for PvP you've crippled us. We're a broken shadow of our former selves when it comes to PvP viability. DON'T JUST LOOK AT NUMBERS. Madness Assassins were always capable of doing nice numbers for the scoreboard... and now, we'll be able to make those high numbers even easier. But Bioware, that damage doesn't count for much. In your PvP, Burst is everything. Our sustained damage has become much lower, and because we no longer have access to Shadow Strike, our burst capabilities are gone. You buffed AoE healing a lot in 2.0, so unless the enemy team doesn't have any healer, our AoE damage doesn't count for anything.

You gave us Phase Walk and nerfed Instant Force Lift, saying that we have too many escape tools. Phase Walk is a very good ability for defensive play in Warzones, and for selfish survival. Instant Force Lift allowed for so much more. Removing it ruined a lot of our group utility. I would MUCH rather keep Instant Force Lift, rather than Phase Walk...
Quote:
With all of that said, I really want to get across that I personally understand how jarring it can be to have your spec’s gameplay changed in such a way. This is not the kind of thing we like doing or the kind of thing that we have any plans on doing again in the foreseeable future – for any spec.
PLEASE reconsider. Madness Assassins are left in a horrible state right now. It's depressing, really. The spec had a great flow, and you can fix it! By reverting a lot of changes, granted, but it is doable. Restore Calculating Mind. This was one of the most charming aspects of the spec, and Lightning Burns in comparison is so very boring, and it doesn't restore the same amount of force that Calculating mind did. Restore Death Field and Death Marks to the way they were in 1.7 (hitting only 3 targets and having only 10 stacks) if you must. In fact, I would prefer this. It was a brilliant limitation considering how a Madness Assassin operated.

Give us a proc that allows for Maul. Perhaps have the same proc also reduce the cost of Shock, and restore unearthed knowledge instead of Lingering Nightmares. This could be in place of Bloodletting.

I plead to you Bioware, please do this. There was never any need to change Madness. All you did was to alienate a thoroughly unique and fun spec from a small part of your community that loved it. So far on my server I've only seen two balance shadows and zero madness assassins... one of the two balance shadows have already gone to tanking, it would seem. Everyone I've talked to in game who had played Balance/Madness before 2.0 all agree that the spec is simply not fun anymore. So please! Please, please, please change the spec again.

kwestone's Avatar


kwestone
04.29.2013 , 10:44 AM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by TW-Cool View Post
I'll pop in again on this thread and say I'd like to see Balance Shadows back the way things were. I still like to do shadow strike in my rotation, but I dont think it's as effective as things used to be. Force In Balance seems to cost more force when using now. I kinda miss the old FiB of it costing less and hitting 3 enemies.... If you think people want more AoE then make it a skill point upgrade to FiB to raise the force cost to hit 2 more enemies. I want to remain a happy Balance Shadow. It's who my character is!

And that Phase Walk needs to be replaced with a dps ability... please? Let me double project if sentinels can double saber throw.
It is more than obvious that Austin P. has some personal vendetta against the class as a whole, and would NEVER give us more DPS. Why else would he nerf one single class so hard? If you read that article NONE of what he is saying makes any sense from a PVP or PVE perspective, his numbers are completely FALSE (assassin DPS STILL 300 LOWER than any other class) and yet he is silent. This thread continues to grow and yet not a word from the staff. All of the information I am seeing points to nothing being done.

In the meantime, my repair bills from tank spec are getting out of hand, even with all 69/72 level mods and armoring, balanced defense stats etc. Just like we warned on the test server, mobs are taking us down in 3-5 seconds if the healer is not incredibly skilled, and even in some cases even with skilled heals. The whole armor nerf thing has been spread-sheeted to death, but numbers are numbers and all you have to do is count repair bills and wipes. So not only am I forced to tank with my favorite toon, I am forced to be a squishy tank, and if I want to run 55 hard mode flash points I DARE NOT pug them. I need the guilds BEST friggin heals, and even then we have 1-2 wipes on flash points. This is from a group that pre-2.0 had NM EC on farm.

Fix it. F**k the cathar. F**k the cartel market. Fix this.