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Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

sainik's Avatar


sainik
04.29.2013 , 11:01 AM | #91
Some great points in the post above by Majspuffen, hope they read it.

Also to AP's statement that balance tree should feel part of the game: I agree, but I would say it needs to feel part of the shadow AC too. Right now it doesn't.

I agree that the balance 1.7 was a very interesting spec, but I also agree with AP that it needed 3 points from another tree (infiltration tactics) to be complete. This was bad, maybe, from a design perspective. The solution then would be to incorporate infiltration tactics inside balance (make it a baseline, as suggested by many), not remove it altogether.

Also, AP's comments about complexity. Why on earth then would KC get access to shadow strike ? Wouldn't it increase the complexity of KC ? Worse, it does nothing for KC's rotation, does't synergise with the KC tree in any way whatsoever (unlike SS for balance 1.7: SS was valuable burst, but more importantly it contributed to meaningful roleplay as melee ranged hybrid). It seems you somehow decided that KC has to be the harder spec and balance the easier. KC in PVP has to watch for atleast 4 procs (surely its a lot more involved when tanking in PVE), balance has to watch for a grand total of 1 proc.

Also there is no risk reward payoff. If done correctly, combat/watchman sentinel, lethality op can pull of amazing burst in a short time for eg. There is nothing like that for balance 2.0. Its very linear (only one way to react in any situation, no way to control the damage-time curve). From a player's perspective, it just feels a poorly done spec.

And as others have said about complexity, many other trees are more complex. Even the trees you remarked as easy (combat sentinels) are arguably more complex than balance 2.0. I remember a statement from one of your developers way back(dont remember who) saying that its better in the long run to have a harder rotation/gameplay (It was in context of commandos losing some damage/induction on grav round I think). I think that applies very well to balance 2.0.

Pscyon's Avatar


Pscyon
04.29.2013 , 02:47 PM | #92
I take it the death of the instant cast Whirlwind was due to PvP whines, as is usually the reason most everything gets nerfed? Do you ever take into consideration abilities' utility in PvE before nerfing them into oblivion? "a lot of extra lockdown that we weren’t too pleased with." you say, why aren't you pleased when Sorcerers keeps NPCs in check, did they complain that players are OP?
Sith Sorcerer

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
04.29.2013 , 05:18 PM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Pscyon View Post
I take it the death of the instant cast Whirlwind was due to PvP whines, as is usually the reason most everything gets nerfed? Do you ever take into consideration abilities' utility in PvE before nerfing them into oblivion? "a lot of extra lockdown that we weren’t too pleased with." you say, why aren't you pleased when Sorcerers keeps NPCs in check, did they complain that players are OP?
What really should've been nerfed was Mind Maze/Sleep Dart. It was (still is for operatives) too easy to ninja cap, and having two 8s mezzes means that the CC breaker is more or less useless.

Imo, Mind Maze/Sleep Dart should last 4s and cause half the resolve it does now. That way, the only way to ninja a base in PvP is to kill the defender. As it should be?

Keiraa's Avatar


Keiraa
04.30.2013 , 07:15 PM | #94
Shadow (Balance tree) here.....

I'm very disappointed that Infiltration tactics is now located further up the Infiltration skill tree. I asked myself : Server Force is better? Or Infiltration tactics? Of course Infiltration tactics with Infiltration mark topped! It deals twice the damage, its faster...

So now I'm half on Balance tree and half on Infiltration tree. I just don't see a reason to top the Balance tree as the new abilities are useless to me. If I have to choose between Mental Scarring+Crush Spirit and Infiltration tactics+Infiltration mark, I take the second.

So Balance is less attractive now... and a bit boring/stupid to play...

When SWTOR first came out, after first 2 months a lot of experienced MMO players left the game. Why? Because the game is easy, the gameplay is easy. Why still make it easier and not harder?

That is only my opinion
If no mistake have you made, yet losing you are ... a different game you should play.
Master YODA, Shatterpoint

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.01.2013 , 07:11 AM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Keiraa View Post
Shadow (Balance tree) here.....

I'm very disappointed that Infiltration tactics is now located further up the Infiltration skill tree. I asked myself : Server Force is better? Or Infiltration tactics? Of course Infiltration tactics with Infiltration mark topped! It deals twice the damage, its faster...

So now I'm half on Balance tree and half on Infiltration tree. I just don't see a reason to top the Balance tree as the new abilities are useless to me. If I have to choose between Mental Scarring+Crush Spirit and Infiltration tactics+Infiltration mark, I take the second.
I tried this as well. I never played any hybrid prior to 2.0 because Full Balance pretty much had it all. It's a tough decision; Shadow Strike is epic for single target damage... but Sever Force is epic for kiting. Personally, I couldn't play without Sever Force. But I'm not sure if I can play without Shadow Strike either.

Quote: Originally Posted by Keiraa View Post
So Balance is less attractive now... and a bit boring/stupid to play...

When SWTOR first came out, after first 2 months a lot of experienced MMO players left the game. Why? Because the game is easy, the gameplay is easy. Why still make it easier and not harder?

That is only my opinion
I agree ... If there is no room for error, gameplay ceases to be fun. I'm staring to look for other games, seeing as I don't think this will never change. For me, it started back in 1.2 already, when they simplified Operative healing (Operative Healer was my main back in those days). Then they made it worse by introducing full set of augmented gear and removing use relics from PvP. Increasing the sustained damage like stupid, but removing situational burst... the latter actually requiring intellect to execute properly. Then came 1.4 with the changes to resolve, and CC is just a headache in pvp ever since.

2.1 was just another step into that direction, by ruining a fantastic spec for both pvp and pve, for the sole purpose of making it easier to play... when it wasn't -that- hard to play to begin with. It doesn't bode well for the future.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
05.01.2013 , 07:49 PM | #96
I'm giving this thread a bump. I was looking over the history of the Shadow Forums. Glanced through 20-30 pages, looking for any complaints that validates Bioware's justification for dumbing down shadows. I can't say I found any. I'll copy my response from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=629002

Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Disclaimer: Sorry for the mocking and sarcastic tone of this post, but I'm really upset with the changes to the Balance spec and Bioware's false justification for it.

Well lots of people were complaining about the Balance Spec and how hard it was. Just look at all these threads;

Super Necromancing Commence!


Balance = Boring: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=380704 (oh no, wait, does the title say infiltration? whups. Well, might be worth looking at the replies in that thread. I'm sure you'll find lots of people saying that Balance was too complex and needed to be nerfed)

Balance = Bad for pvp: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=505404 (Yes, the OP is atrocious and he calls the spec "focus" but check the replies. Obviously, people were very upset with how complex balance was. Depth is bad!)

Balance = Bad force regen!! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499759 (Yep, though most of the people replying in the thread says otherwise. Most seem to agree that our force regen was, in fact, fine. And as you can see, lots of people complain about how complex it is. Even the OP wanted a passive random force regen over Sharpened Mind. It's right there in the suggestons! .. oh, it isn't?? Sorry, my mistake)

Balance = Worse than Infiltration! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=515739 (Short thread but I found this passage interesting: "I love infiltration....that was till I finally budged and gave in to learn balance, now I won't go back no matter how flashy and cool it looks, the rotation feels a lot smoother too." What did Bioware say about the Shadow Rotation? Right, it's CLUNKY! Derp, that poster must be a complete idiot)

Force in Balance = Annoying! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=523579 (this is actually a genuine balance complaint. I'm linking it for the sense of consistency. I do not agree with the poster in the thread, however, seeing as I mainly PvP... and Force in Balance having a targeting reticle is highly useful for pvp.)

Balance or Infiltration: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=521128 (Check the replies. No one complaining about how complex Balance is, but... interesting reply; "none of the specs are hard mind you but infil is much harder to play well than balance." Someone who thinks Infiltration is harder than Balance!)

Balance Shadows are too complex said no one ever: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=511888 (just a random thread with some luv for the old Balance thread)

Opinions about Balance: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=530021 (too complex? Said who?)

People unable to learn: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=140266 (oh wait, the OP seemed to get it rather fast. THANK GOD you made the spec easier Bioware!!)

Shadows are BORING: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=576628 (Wait.. no, just read the thread.)

"Do you like or not the Balance spec ?" http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=580357 (well, bioware, what does your customers say? Too complex, right? That's what they are saying?)

Conclusion:

I've glanced over 20-30 pages and not once did I see anyone complain that Balance was too hard. In fact, if there was any spec that was considered complex it was Infiltration, as many people didn't understand how to play the spec properly. To them, you wrote an eloquent post explaining that people simply had to learn how to play.

So why, Bioware? What feedback spurred you to change Balance? The only common complaint related to the Balance spec was the Twin Discipline debate; whether project was to be used in our rotation or not. I didn't find a single complaint about Balance being too hard to play. But I did find a lot of posts expressing their joy over how fun the spec was. So why the hell did you ruin it?

Why am I, a customer, going over your feedback? Don't you have paid people to do that sort of thing? The reason I did it was to see whether people had actively been complaining about Balance or not... and they haven't! So why on earth did you ruin the spec?! It's frustrating as hell! I'm going to hold my breath until 2.1... I'd prefer to have the Balance tree more or less fully restored (with a talent for Shadow Strike instead of Crush spirit. This way you can keep Infiltration and Kinetic Combat as they are. Technique Mastery might need to be changed). I would settle for a Shadow Strike proc though... I've tried Lethality Operative and to a lesser extent Pyrotech Merc, and I just can't find the joy in the game anymore. Everything is so dumbed down. Of the remaining complex trees, there's not a one that really appeals to me. I want my kiting mid-range fighter back.
No one. Ever. Complained. About. Balance.

lwsupremacy's Avatar


lwsupremacy
05.02.2013 , 09:05 PM | #97
One more disgruntled balance shadow...

Previous posts have covered all the points I think. I've played balance on my main since beta and now after 2.0 I basically avoid that character.

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
05.03.2013 , 08:30 AM | #98
First nice Job you've done with Kinetic since I'm playing my shadow 95% of the time as a Tank I'm completely satisfied with my 2.0 shadow in regards to PVE (I don't PVP regularly)

but the other 5% are a bit how do I phrase this... I hope I'm at least understandable,
if it's too bad to read ignore the white wall of text and just read my proposal in Green.

it's about Balance since I don't play the middle tree
I think Balance is still fun but I've liked it even more before the changes I've just been to busy playing tank or heal to DD much,
I've been using it a couple of times in the past 1-2 weeks.
for PVE I'd say it's decent enough not to be a liability for your Team
but it doesn't Add anything to the group from this interview I'm assuming something will come in that regard in the foreseeable Future that will add a Group wide Buff to Phase walk so that doesn't bother me all that much at the moment.
(if I had to think of something I'd give the focused insight heal to everyone standing in my Phase walk mark)

the 2nd problem is more annoying
usually you burst all the weak enemies down as fast as Possible then deal with the Strong/Elite/Champion/Boss
that being the case I usually don't DOT most of them but I'll try to FIB the Weak to kill them as fast as possible then kill the remaining enemies,
it'll do the Job to kill them with DOT's sure but in the end why stress Your Healers and tanks if you could just FIB+Project/double strike them in 1/10 of the time?
dead enemies neither use CC nor do they deal dmg.

I can understand if you'd like to have an AOE Spec for all AC's but I prefer to deal with one enemy and then move on to the next one
Spoiler

so the instant dmg from FIB is all the AOE I need.
dotting 2 maybe 3 enemies is all right but with more enemies my first priority is reducing incoming damage not getting big numbers.

and I think most shadows/assassins would agree.
I might be wrong of course.
but what I have in mind won't lower our AOE Damage
instead it'll give us the choice to use a group of enemies to buff our single target DMG or spread our DOT's around like we do now.

what I'd change:
FIB shouldn't apply Force Suppression to all Targets hit,
but a Buff to you, worth 10/15 stacks for each target Hit.
that way we can burst the weak enemies down to relieve our Healer's+Tanks without wasting 80% of the Force Suppression marks and use them as a means to increase our dmg on targets of our own choosing

if I remember correctly (as I said I'm just a Hobby DD)
the 15 stacks will usually run out before FIB can be reapplied on the main Target with all 3 DOT's ticking.
with the mechanic I proposed we could use any adds that appear during the fight to buff our DPS on the Boss.


Spoiler

TW-Cool's Avatar


TW-Cool
05.04.2013 , 09:56 AM | #99
I figured it was time to post again just to remind Bioware that I find my Balance shadow not as fun anymore. It is my main character. I will continue to still use Shadow Strike randomly and just be less effective of a dps. Hopefully others will understand that we just got screwed over by 2.0.

As for trying a hybrid mix, I think I will miss sever force too much. I enjoy it's long range.

I may have to work on my Sentinel instead...

Darkspeaker's Avatar


Darkspeaker
05.06.2013 , 08:38 AM | #100
Can we at least not look ridiculous? No more 'bras on our head' head pieces, etc? Getting real tired of the Empire getting all the good outfits.