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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 03:38 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Lelvannia View Post
OMG BalphoWan, I agree completely. In fact I think your rule should apply to every competition human beings engage in, not just MMOs. Let's take chess for example. Obviously the current system is broken, giving every player an equal number of pieces at the beginning of a game is a commie pinko socialist idea straight out of Marx's book.

Players should be given pieces based on how much they play, so for example if Kasparov wanted to play chess today he should start the game with only the king (he's retired and doesn't play chess anymore, so any "gear" he got would now be 5 tiers behind if this were an MMO), meanwhile a guy let's call him Mr. Smith, who religiously attends every local tournament (and gets his *** handed to him at every one of them) should start with 5 queens 10 rooks and so on.

So, if Mr. Smith and Kasparov were to play chess, by your "logic", then Mr. Smith would win AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE CUS MR. SMITH IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER AT CHESS! Wooooo!

Should be the same with everything. High jump? People who attend more competitions should jump off a crate or something, after all they should have some reward for attending competitions. Sprint? Make everyone run different distances, based on how many competitions they attended last year. Boxing? Give the attender more points at the beginning of the match. After all, he's obviously a better fighter. If he were to meet a thug in the dark alley he could totally show him all those certificates from all the comps he attended and the thug would be totally beaten by this very act.
This is an MMO. It is not chess or the Olympics my friend. I did not design the game, or the paradigm within which 99% of MMO's operate and flourish. MMO's are built around the gear hunt. The SWTOR devs instituted the gear hunt for PVP. You are trying to tell me and them that you don't think the gear hunt should exist, or if it does, that it should not provide an advantage against other players. That's fine. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the gear hunt does exist, despite your melodramatic, and flawed, analogies to support the idea that it shouldn't (socialism? really?), and you are trying to tell me that I am a bad person for enjoying the benefits of it. That is where I am confused.

Let's take your example of chess. Lets say that a group of friends get together to start a chess league, and they implement certain rules. Now, all the players in that league agree to the rules. The rule is that the more you play the more pieces you can use. All players agree and the chess club flourishes. Then you come along, and you want to be part of the chess club. But you don't like the rule about not being able to use all the pieces right away. Who are you going to get mad at? The player who has been in the club for the last year and has all the pieces or the person that created the club? Or anyone for that matter? Why would you be mad at the person who has worked hard for a year to get all those pieces and enjoys beating the other players IN THE CLUB who haven't worked as hard (in case you were wondering, that person is me by the way)? Why would you even get mad at the person who created the chess club? Why wouldn't you just choose to join another league? Or better yet, if you really like this leagure, why not take your time and get all the pieces too? The only thing I don't understand is your rage toward the person who signed up for the club like everyone else and enjoys the beneifts that the club was designed for?

SWTOR is a club my friend. It is a club that was formed by certain people who based the sytem under which it operates off of many clubs before it. Your analogy presupposes the notion that SWTOR has labeled its game as something that preexisted the devs decision to develop this game as they saw fit, and , as such, must follow those rules and not it's own. Chess existed long before my hypothetical chess league. Thus, you can go to that chess league and tell them that they are not playing "chess." But SWTOR was created by the people who developed SWTOR (as dumb as that sounds I am trying to make a point). If the person that created chess had designed it as you described it above, would you be yelling at him for being a capitalist? No, I suspect you would just go play checkers. That might be the better game for you anyway.

Soikkam's Avatar


Soikkam
04.17.2013 , 03:46 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. But I think you, like many others, are misunderstanding what I am saying and oversimplifying the skill vs gear debate. I am not trying to say there aren't many players out there with good PVP gear who are not "skilled" at PVP. Becuase of the fact that, in theory, you can get the gear without ever killing another player in PVP, it is obvious that an unskilled player could get good gear. But doesn't the unskilled PVP player who got the gear deserve a reward for putting in the time? But regardless, that is not the issue. You say that "gear is everything." The isue is how much an advantage should be gained from gear. I don't think we disagree that gear should give you some advantage. At that point it is just a discussion of quantity. You and I may disagree on how much of an advantage should come with better gear. That is merely just our opinions, and there isn't much discussion warranted on that subject.

The more important thing you said, in my opinon, is that I should be concerned with the gear gap driving away PVP players like yourself. And as I mentioned in a previous post, I am concerned about that. There has to be a balance. We just disgree on where to strike that balance. And that's okay. It is not necessary to personally attack and say that my gear is the only thing giving me an advantage. That may be true. I don't think it is, but it may be. The point is that I worked long and hard to get my gear. I also worked long and hard to develop whatever PVP skills I have. And I think that the time and effort i put into getting those skills and gear warrant reward. In my opinion. that reward should be a distinct advantage against lesser skilled and/or lesser geared players. Hence, I don't think I should be ashamed when I reap that reward in the form of facerolling a lesser skilled and/or lesser geared player.
You are hilarious man. So lesser geared players are "rewards to be reaped"? You are a laughable individual...
Now, of course lesser skilled players should be beaten by better skilled players, but PvP CANNOT revolve around gear. If a player is better than you, then they should win. This isn't PvE, this is Player vs. Player; This isn't Gear + Kid who thinks he's good vs. Undergeared Player.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think gear progression should be taken out of pvp, but I do think expertise should be toned down exponentially. It's not a matter of "Boo-hoo, I was beaten by a kid in PvE gear because my expertise isn't saving me." or "I put more time into PvP, and got my *** kicked (because I'm bad) to get my God gear, so why am I still losing?". It is a matter of Skill>Gear, which should always be the case in any form of Player vs. Player.

I think gear should still give an advantage, but not to the point of literally walking over undergeared players of greater skill. Believe me, you DON'T DESERVE THAT...

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 04:01 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Soikkam View Post
You are hilarious man. So lesser geared players are "rewards to be reaped"? You are a laughable individual...
Now, of course lesser skilled players should be beaten by better skilled players, but PvP CANNOT revolve around gear. If a player is better than you, then they should win. This isn't PvE, this is Player vs. Player; This isn't Gear + Kid who thinks he's good vs. Undergeared Player.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think gear progression should be taken out of pvp, but I do think expertise should be toned down exponentially. It's not a matter of "Boo-hoo, I was beaten by a kid in PvE gear because my expertise isn't saving me." or "I put more time into PvP, and got my *** kicked (because I'm bad) to get my God gear, so why am I still losing?". It is a matter of Skill>Gear, which should always be the case in any form of Player vs. Player.

I think gear should still give an advantage, but not to the point of literally walking over undergeared players of greater skill. Believe me, you DON'T DESERVE THAT...
TL;DR

"Yes Balphowan, I agree gear should warrant some advantage; we just disgree on how much."

That is exaclty what I stated in my post. And I agree with you that the way I stated that facerolling an opponent should be my reward was morbid. I didn't mean it like that. The reward to which I was referring was the increase in my stats compared to others that enable me to out perform them. Is that nice enough for you?

Rantank's Avatar


Rantank
04.17.2013 , 04:02 PM | #44
All the unpleasant flaming this issue has drawn notwithstanding, the issues I have are -

What is the carrot now given the gear is almost irrelevant.

Why is equivalent PVP gear lower stat budget than PVE.

Why do PVE players get an equalizer in PVP but PVP players don't get one in PVE.

In PVP in other games there was always high risk attached to glass cannon gear and builds. Some have always been able to wear PVE gear in PVP just to blow stuff up but there was also great risk involved and required good teamwork to protect them. This change has put training wheels on PVE gear and almost encourages level 72 glass cannon play as three quarters of the risk has been removed.

I used to be a hard core raider in WOW, then with SWTOR I never found a right fit. There's too much trolling, entitlement and just plain rudeness to make me want to invest in a guild again. So I PVP. I have always wanted to see progression though, getting those swish shoulders, or the awesome graphic bow..... and now... I just don't see it anymore. Its like each game I step into.. thats all there is. If killing people who were underprepared floated your boat, I really don't see a problem with it. You didn't expect to have an easy time in a raid undergeared either.
Defeating a standing army goes for time and a half.

Lelvannia's Avatar


Lelvannia
04.17.2013 , 04:13 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
SWTOR is a club my friend. It is a club that was formed by certain people who based the sytem under which it operates off of many clubs before it. Your analogy presupposes the notion that SWTOR has labeled its game as something that preexisted the devs decision to develop this game as they saw fit, and , as such, must follow those rules and not it's own. Chess existed long before my hypothetical chess league. Thus, you can go to that chess league and tell them that they are not playing "chess." But SWTOR was created by the people who developed SWTOR (as dumb as that sounds I am trying to make a point). If the person that created chess had designed it as you described it above, would you be yelling at him for being a socialist? No, I suspect you would just go play checkers. That might be the better game for you anyway.
So. You suggest that if I don't like gear grind I should just shut up and leave to play some other game. Fine.

Except, newsflash. The current rules of "SWTOR club" as you call it are: "undress and compete on equal footing with people who spent months grinding their EWH set". And devs have repeatedly stated that even when naked WZs are fixed they want the gear gap to be minimal.

So. If you want gear grinds, may I suggest you take your very own advice? I hear World of Warcraft has some nice looong gear grinds with huge gear gap AND uber cool kungfu pandas. You're also free to start your own "club" where there will be no game at all, just the guy who showed up to more matches previously will be automatically proclaimed winner. I wonder how many people would be interested in such an activity.

JonnnyB's Avatar


JonnnyB
04.17.2013 , 04:20 PM | #46
The whole bloster issue is a great example of entrenched interests opposing new entrants.

I find that fascinating.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 04:22 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Lelvannia View Post
So. You suggest that if I don't like gear grind I should just shut up and leave to play some other game. Fine.

Except, newsflash. The current rules of "SWTOR club" as you call it are: "undress and compete on equal footing with people who spent months grinding their EWH set". And devs have repeatedly stated that even when naked WZs are fixed they want the gear gap to be minimal.

So. If you want gear grinds, may I suggest you take your very own advice? I hear World of Warcraft has some nice looong gear grinds with huge gear gap AND uber cool kungfu pandas. You're also free to start your own "club" where there will be no game at all, just the guy who showed up to more matches previously will be automatically proclaimed winner. I wonder how many people would be interested in such an activity.
Respectfully, I still think you are missing the point. In a sense I was telling you if you don't like it, then leave. But I don't want you to leave. I don't want anyone to leave. So I may have mispoken to some extent. What I am saying is that I enjoyed the beneifts the game was designed to give those that put in the time. If the devs change that, then I will either conform to those changes, or, as you stated, go somewhere else if I don't like it. But, in reality, I will simply conform to the changes. Because, as I stated in my previous posts, I like PVP on an even playing field. I just ALSO liked when I could see the tangible effects of the long gear and skill grind that I went through, in the form of me "facerolling" lesser geared/skilled players.

Why can't I enjoy both? And if I do enjoy both, why does that make me a bad person?

(As a side note, I regret using the word "facerolling" in the title of this thread; I think it gave an unwanted tone to my OP that was not my intention)

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
04.17.2013 , 04:29 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
I wanna bully people and no one can do anything about it so na na na and I wanna do it cuz I was bullied..gives me a purpose.

Ya, everyone knows you should be able to pick on the new guy. It's like one of the first rules of being an adolescent. Hell they even have made movies about it. A kid goes to new school, and you're like the guy that won't accept him cuz he's new, trips him in the cafeteria, steals his pencils. We get it.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 04:35 PM | #49
To MotorCityMan:

Again, please read all of my posts. I don't want to bully anyone. I have repeatedly stated that I do not go after players in WZ's based on their gear or skill level. I choose my targets strategically based on the WZ and the circumstances speific to that match. And I have never griefed players in open world PVP. I simply enjoy when I go up against a willing opponent in PVP and "faceroll" them. It makes me feel like the time I took to develop whatever PVP skills I have and to acquire my PVP gear was not spent in vain.

And you are a perfect example of what I am tlaking about. So please, tell me why I should feel bad about enjoying that? Should I run away from lesser geared players in WZ's so that I don't hurt their feelings, in protest of what I should believe is an unfair system put in place by the devs? Or maybe I should just take a dive and let them beat me so everything is fair? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG WITH ENJOYING THE PVP PARADIGM THAT WAS INSTITUTED BY THE DEVS? Why does that make me a bully in your eyes?

sgtpsych's Avatar


sgtpsych
04.17.2013 , 04:44 PM | #50
You should not feel bad. It is your choice to feel good about face rolling newer players. That is your choice. I had three 50s top geared characters. I like having more balance and don't mind chasing after another carrot. However I just want clarity, because I seem to be having the same experience in top pve gear and same level pvp gear. Right now it's a cluster. If I just need to run ops only to be geared for warzones, let us know. I'll just buy medpacks instead of wasting comms on pvp gear.

I want more balance but this whole experience is mind numbing.
Ghost Infantry Kashar