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Current State of Vanguard DPS, PvE/PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Current State of Vanguard DPS, PvE/PvP

Daskillz's Avatar


Daskillz
04.15.2013 , 07:37 AM | #1
Vanguard dps is in a pathetic state right now for PvE and PvP. Since early release I've rushed to 55 in order to be help my guild with Progression through HM S&V.

PVE
I've been running this spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...ZfGrbzRrcfdz.3

Since Assault Plastique is almost required in order to counter balance to 50% dmg Plasma Cell Nerf I took it.

When I first hit 55 with no upgrades taken I parsed myself on the dummy

Average DPS: 1730
Duration of Parse: 8 mins

After spam running hardmodes and taking some gear from HM S&V (cleared first 6 Bosses with them) I am currently mostly 69 with some 71 pieces, (Mainhand is 61 and Offhand is 66 blue)

Average DPS: 1850
Duration of Parse: 20 mins

I am aware that another spec is do workable at the moment
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MoZfGrbzRrcc.3

main reason for this spec is because Gut has higher DoT damage than Assault Plastique and this spec allows you to actually get increased damage on your other abilities. But one trade off is that the DoT from Gut is not affected by Burnout because it is internal damage. And also the one nice thing about Assault Plastique is that the CD of it lines up really well with Incendiary Round DoT so it allows you to keep track of your DoT more. Which tends to be a pain in the Arse when you're in the raid with other people of a similar spec.

Here is the problem, I am being told by sentinels that on a dummy they're pulling 2300 DPS after a 6 minute parse. Keep in mind that the sentinel that told me this has about half the gear I have. (ie mostly dreadguard with some 69s) Before 2.0 Vanguards and Sentinels were really competitive in DPS and when one wins the other wouldn't be far behind.

Yes, I fully understand that MoX is not perfect and that a Target Dummy is not a good representation of a real fight. So last night I participated in the 16 Man Story Mode Boss in Makeb (my apologies for not remembering the name) We have two strong Sentinels in my guild who hit 55 and barely even touched HM FPs yet. By the end of the fight I did around 600k damage. Sentinel A did 820k DMG and Sentinel B did 700k dmg.

I should have taken screenshots of this but wasn't even planning to post this at the time.

I am not claiming I am a perfect human being who is working the rotation to maximum effectiveness but I have parsed atleast 4-5 times and I don't consider the Vanguard Rotation hard. Our Class is basically a DoT class so my rotation priority is as follows.

Rotation
  1. Incendiary Round
  2. Assault Plastique (On CD)
  3. High Impact Bolt
  4. Stock Strike (Off CD to proc HiB)
  5. Ion Pulse (Dump Excess Energy (down to 60% maximum in order to insure max energy regen while DoTs are up and Proc HiB)
  6. Hammer Shot (When energry is at 60% to enable regen)
  7. Reload (if you let energy fall below 60% by mistake dump with Ion Pulse down to 20% then use Reload)

That is my rotation in a nutshell of course I pop my Battle Focus & Reuseable Adrenal off CD as long as I know I have plenty of time on the Boss. I can give more detail as well as Screenshots as needed (typing this up at school atm so do not have access to the game :P)

TLDR: Vanguards DPS in their current state are not a good asset for Guilds to bring to Operations anymore because their numbers currently appear to not be competitive with other DPS when they're on even footing with Gear.

PvP

PvP wise Vanguard DPS are in an even worse position because Burst was taken away from a Burst class. What Vanguards strong point was their ability to decimate people with a string of crits. Their big trade-off was limited mobility and crappy CDS.

Now with 2.0 Vanguards got minimal survivability and more mobility but they hit like a wet noodle.

Hold The Line is a really great ability that was given to all Vanguards which helps out with mobility and ability to actually be useful in Huttball.
I do like the new Adrenaline Rush but keep in mind that this ability keeps you in Execute range which means the chances of it saving you aren't really high at all.

I have to say Vanguards and Powertechs are the only class that has a real trade-off when it comes to pulling good numbers and survivability in pvp. You look at Sentinels and Guardians they could beat a solid Vanguard/Powertech in numbers at the end of the WZ but still have better survivability. (Before 2.0) Now It is actually worse for Vanguards considering Sorcs/Sages have Barrier which is a little deterrent from people attacking them. Scoundrels/Operatives have Scamper which is really amazing mobility which deters people from attacking them. So what do people start focusing... the best choice at the moment is still the Vanguard/Powertech we're still squishy and all we were given in pvp as Assault was a Reactive Shield that does 500 damage to attackers. That is really not enough to make people not want to attack us really.

The only thing I can gather from 2.0 is that Vanguard Tanks are the only thing that is actually Viable for the Vanguard PvPer. I will be tanking pvp on my Vanguard but as for PvE I am going back to my scoundrel because I am done bothering with DPS.

The_FLIPmode's Avatar


The_FLIPmode
04.15.2013 , 08:23 AM | #2
AP is worthless now because it represents a big drop in dps. I would advise against using it in its current form.
POT5:
Turanor - Juggernaut, Turannor - Marauder, Turanar - Mercenary, Fl´ppy -Vanguard
Ele'anor - Powertech, Tyrannor - Sorcerer, , Tűranor - Gunslinger, Turanorr - Scoundrel

Keypek's Avatar


Keypek
04.15.2013 , 08:37 AM | #3
I don't know, pve hasn't been to bad so far. Have been consistently hitting top dps in mox on ops raids and I'm less geared than most. Do not use either of the specs you listed though. When all is said and done and everyone is max geared I don't know if that'll stay that way but so far there is no reason for me to assume I won't be hitting within a couple percent of any other dps if not over.

Pvp I think you pretty much covered it though. To squishy and easy targets with little in the way of burst anymore.... or at least any that will scare well geared groups.
K'mpek/Keypek or some variation
Vanguard dps for nim progression. 55s=1 of everything.
Undercon__ ICE Breaker>Corellian Run>The Shadowlands

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
04.15.2013 , 09:29 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by The_FLIPmode View Post
AP is worthless now because it represents a big drop in dps. I would advise against using it in its current form.
Out of curiosity: what about Assault Plastique "represents a big drop in DPS"?

As far as I can tell, it hits for a little less than it did in pre 2.0 but now it leaves a DoT, giving us a 3rd DoT that we can have on the target. So it gives us "more" sustained damage.

As for burst, Assault Plastique > Sticky Grenade > Ion Pulse > High Impact Bolt > Stock Strike still seems to cause a "huge bang" in a very short period of time at about the 3s - 4,5s mark (Ion Pulse hits, AP explodes, SG explodes as HIB hits (and Stock Strike generally procs another free HiB which means more damage in the next 2 globals)).

Again, what about Assault Plastique "represents a big drop in DPS"?
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
04.15.2013 , 09:41 AM | #5
Question for Daskillz:
why put a point in "Blaster Augs" instead of maxing out "Brutal Impact"?

Is the 3% extra critrical CHANCE on tech attacks really that much better than having your High Impact Bolts hit for 6% more DAMAGE?

I could be wrong, but a maxed out "Brutal Impact" just looks better. With it, not only is HIB ignoring 75% of your target's armor BUT it is also hitting for 6% more damage *all the time*. With "Blaster Augs" you are increasing your crirical CHANCE on tech attacks: in other words, it doesn't do anything for you 70% of the time (more or less, depending on your base crit chance).

So, why put a point in "Blaster Augs" instead of maxing out "Brutal Impact"?
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

Mozivicus's Avatar


Mozivicus
04.15.2013 , 09:47 AM | #6
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MMoZfhrbzRrc.3

I've been running that. Still in basically min/maxed 63, except for a 28 aim barrel and 28 armorings in my belt and bracer.

I feel weaker than before the xpac. Seems I'm pretty much topping out about 1600 or so. Finished first boss if S&V at that mark last night also.

Couple points on the build....
Like gut for an additional DOT, since our burst is gone
Didn't go for AP (loved it before) because I think the points spent to get up to AP effect only specific situations in PvE...situations that I don't see arising often in a boss fight.
Took the rebuff on ion pulse as literally my last 2 points because it seemed to be the most useful way to help the raid, instead of taking a damage buff somewhere, for what appears to be situational at best abilities.
Kinda torn between electro shield and paralytic combat stim. Opted for combat stims since there are some knockbacks in the new OP, and shield is on a 2 minute useless cooldown. So, maybe more use out of combat stims???

Any feedback would be appreciated. If I can't figure this out, I'm gonna have to raid with my sentinel.

Keypek's Avatar


Keypek
04.15.2013 , 10:13 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
Again, what about Assault Plastique "represents a big drop in DPS"?
AP was always a dps loss even before 2.0 with the exception of pvp because of its burst in short fights. In pve though it has always been a loss. And while the DoT aspect does spread the damage over time in longer fights it's not like they raised the damage.... in fact they lowered slightly so it's not a dps increase from before 2.0... it's actually a slight decrease from when it wasn't advised to use in the first place for pve.
K'mpek/Keypek or some variation
Vanguard dps for nim progression. 55s=1 of everything.
Undercon__ ICE Breaker>Corellian Run>The Shadowlands

Keypek's Avatar


Keypek
04.15.2013 , 10:24 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Mozivicus View Post
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MMoZfhrbzRrc.3

I've been running that. Still in basically min/maxed 63, except for a 28 aim barrel and 28 armorings in my belt and bracer.

I feel weaker than before the xpac. Seems I'm pretty much topping out about 1600 or so. Finished first boss if S&V at that mark last night also.

Couple points on the build....
Like gut for an additional DOT, since our burst is gone
Didn't go for AP (loved it before) because I think the points spent to get up to AP effect only specific situations in PvE...situations that I don't see arising often in a boss fight.
Took the rebuff on ion pulse as literally my last 2 points because it seemed to be the most useful way to help the raid, instead of taking a damage buff somewhere, for what appears to be situational at best abilities.
Kinda torn between electro shield and paralytic combat stim. Opted for combat stims since there are some knockbacks in the new OP, and shield is on a 2 minute useless cooldown. So, maybe more use out of combat stims???

Any feedback would be appreciated. If I can't figure this out, I'm gonna have to raid with my sentinel.
If this is only for pve I'd drop sweltering heat cause there isn't much value in snaring mobs in a raid. Parallactic stims I always go back and forth on myself. When you do get stunned or whatever it sure is nice to get a boost of ammo but if you are rotating well it shouldn't be needed and I don't think knockbacks trigger it. Would put the sweltering heat into soldiers endurance at least. Stims are kind of personal preference though and not like nightvision scope or electro shield does much for you in pve.

Would definitely drop static field as well and put the two points into burnout and possibly drop one from overcharged cell cap into max burnout as well. With crit chance being nerfed those static bonuses are worth even more now and your job is to dps as much as humanly possible and let the tanks and healers worry about inc damage. Solo pve'ing I could see a point in that though.

An assault heavy spec I'd go with this and nothing else personally.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MoZfGbbzRrcc.3
K'mpek/Keypek or some variation
Vanguard dps for nim progression. 55s=1 of everything.
Undercon__ ICE Breaker>Corellian Run>The Shadowlands

Daskillz's Avatar


Daskillz
04.15.2013 , 10:25 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
Question for Daskillz:
why put a point in "Blaster Augs" instead of maxing out "Brutal Impact"?

Is the 3% extra critrical CHANCE on tech attacks really that much better than having your High Impact Bolts hit for 6% more DAMAGE?

I could be wrong, but a maxed out "Brutal Impact" just looks better. With it, not only is HIB ignoring 75% of your target's armor BUT it is also hitting for 6% more damage *all the time*. With "Blaster Augs" you are increasing your crirical CHANCE on tech attacks: in other words, it doesn't do anything for you 70% of the time (more or less, depending on your base crit chance).

So, why put a point in "Blaster Augs" instead of maxing out "Brutal Impact"?
I chose Blaster Augs because it is basically a choice between 3% more damage for HiB (because I do put 1 point in Brutal Impact) and 3% more tech crit which affects all of my DoTs. I personally decided crit was a better choice for that situation but in no way am I saying I make good decisions all of the time.

As for AP I figured AP would be required to counter the 50% damage nerf to Plasma Cell. I also considered that since it is elemental damage it would be nice to have for the "Burnout" Talent. Honestly if you have any other specs for me to try then I am all ears. I'm actually hoping somebody can some in her and say "you're doing it wrong, here is how to boost your dps to be competitive". I enjoy playing vanguard a lot but from what I've seen I don't feel there is any point to bringing a Vanguard DPS to Operations anymore.

Mozivicus's Avatar


Mozivicus
04.15.2013 , 10:54 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Keypek View Post
If this is only for pve I'd drop sweltering heat cause there isn't much value in snaring mobs in a raid. Parallactic stims I always go back and forth on myself. When you do get stunned or whatever it sure is nice to get a boost of ammo but if you are rotating well it shouldn't be needed and I don't think knockbacks trigger it. Would put the sweltering heat into soldiers endurance at least. Stims are kind of personal preference though and not like nightvision scope or electro shield does much for you in pve.

Would definitely drop static field as well and put the two points into burnout and possibly drop one from overcharged cell cap into max burnout as well. With crit chance being nerfed those static bonuses are worth even more now and your job is to dps as much as humanly possible and let the tanks and healers worry about inc damage. Solo pve'ing I could see a point in that though.

An assault heavy spec I'd go with this and nothing else personally.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MoZfGbbzRrcc.3
Great points, thanks.

I suppose burnout is useful for boss fights since their 30% health is still going to leave plenty of time for me to work through many more rotations.

Sweltering heat, ya, you're probably right.

I like the idea of more HP too

Very similar builds. I'll try yours out, thanks a lot.