Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Is the Empire really driven that far back?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Is the Empire really driven that far back?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.24.2013 , 10:55 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
If you are referring to the 'once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy' comment, that is most likely in reference to Darth Ruin.

As for the 'Republic that has stood for over a thousand years' comment. That is referring to the Ruusan Reformation, as the Republic was reformed (as the title suggests). Which would also explain why Sio Bibble says 'there hasn't been a full scale war since the foundation of the Republic.'

Edit: Yup, I was right. The Ruusan Reformation was introduced by authors to explain those comments.
Yup, however while this may be a reference to Darth Ruin it is hardly set in stone, nor did Ruin actually ever rule the entire galaxy, just a portion of it. I also doubt he ever took Coruscant or many if any of the Core Worlds given the fact that the Republic was still around... so that's not really ruling the galaxy.

But I'm not talking about the other quote, but the technological Dark Ages the Republic seemed to be in during and leading up to and before the New Sith Wars. I mean it looked like something out of the medieval era. There must be a reason. The Republic simply could have not stood for another 1,000 years, their technology is far to advanced in comparison.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.24.2013 , 11:01 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yup, however while this may be a reference to Darth Ruin it is hardly set in stone, nor did Ruin actually ever rule the entire galaxy, just a portion of it. I also doubt he ever took Coruscant or many if any of the Core Worlds given the fact that the Republic was still around... so that's not really ruling the galaxy.

But I'm not talking about the other quote, but the technological Dark Ages the Republic seemed to be in during and leading up to and before the New Sith Wars. I mean it looked like something out of the medieval era. There must be a reason. The Republic simply could have not stood for another 1,000 years, their technology is far to advanced in comparison.
That is explained by the Draggulch Period or the early times of the New Sith Wars. A point in time when the Republic ceased to exist in comparison to later centuries. Basically, the Republic abandoned countless worlds to the Sith, companies went bankrupt, etc.

This most likely explains the technological discrepancies.

Edit: Thought that I might expand on this. Early on in the war (early being subjective), both sides were near collapse. The Republic couldn't maintain the holonet outside of the Core, and galactic commerce had slowed down to a crawl, or even ceased. I believe this explains the technological discrepancies in the Light and Darkness War.
Added Chapters 39 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.24.2013 , 11:10 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That is explained by the Draggulch Period or the early times of the New Sith Wars. A point in time when the Republic ceased to exist in comparison to later centuries. Basically, the Republic abandoned countless worlds to the Sith, companies went bankrupt, etc.

This most likely explains the technological discrepancies.
Losing a war does not throw you back several thousands years technologically, the 'blueprints' are still there, the technology as still been discovered and invented, only a complete devastation of civilization could possible achieve that. For example if some power destroyed all our nuclear weapons testing plants, we'd still have the knowledge of how to create nuclear weapons.

Now you could say they simply don't have the resources, but if this is the case, how is it that the Sith are in the same position? Using the same technology?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.24.2013 , 11:25 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Losing a war does not throw you back several thousands years technologically, the 'blueprints' are still there, the technology as still been discovered and invented, only a complete devastation of civilization could possible achieve that. For example if some power destroyed all our nuclear weapons testing plants, we'd still have the knowledge of how to create nuclear weapons.

Now you could say they simply don't have the resources, but if this is the case, how is it that the Sith are in the same position? Using the same technology?
You need money to make impressive starships and weapons. Both sides had suffered economic collapse. It's not the same as having something destroyed. Both sides had seen economic collapse. They may have the ability to produce these things, but they don't have the resources to do it.

Basically, the Republic had nothing going for them, and the Sith Empire had all but collapsed. Most of the former Republic territory was split between Sith warlords, who then squabbled for more territory. The Republic tried to take these worlds back, but, for the most part, left them alone.

Simply put, the galaxy was in a dark time. You can say that it was the possible victory of the Sith Empire in TOR that contributed to this, but then I don't remember the New Republic suffering from these overwhelming economic troubles, despite suffering from a pretty long war, and then periodic war.
Added Chapters 39 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.24.2013 , 11:59 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
You need money to make impressive starships and weapons. Both sides had suffered economic collapse. It's not the same as having something destroyed. Both sides had seen economic collapse. They may have the ability to produce these things, but they don't have the resources to do it.

Basically, the Republic had nothing going for them, and the Sith Empire had all but collapsed. Most of the former Republic territory was split between Sith warlords, who then squabbled for more territory. The Republic tried to take these worlds back, but, for the most part, left them alone.

Simply put, the galaxy was in a dark time. You can say that it was the possible victory of the Sith Empire in TOR that contributed to this, but then I don't remember the New Republic suffering from these overwhelming economic troubles, despite suffering from a pretty long war, and then periodic war.
There is a difference cheap and unimpressive and just plain backward. I mean if we were at war with whoever and went into economic collapse do you think we've revert to fighting with swords, halberds and maces? And started smelting armour and shields? No, we would fight with guns and modern combat gear, but equipment would simply be scarce. We don't have the means to effectively produce centuries old technology because as it has become outdated, the machinery used to create it has been replaced.

Therefore an economic collapse in the Republic should not have led to a technological retreat, but rather a scarcity in armaments. For example the Kuat Shipyards of the Empire era do not have the capabilities to produce Sith warships of the Great Hyperspace War. However if civilization was all but decimated, we'd be force to start from scratch and with limited resources and information believable would revert to spears and arrows etc. and develop from there.

Also, the Sith Empire were not always squabbling and fighting, else they never would have been able to score such decisive victories against the Republic. Indeed at times they were very much unified and conquered large portions of the galaxy, with armaments, resources, shipyards etc. And even if they did split into warring factions, they'd still possess that technology and those capabilities, but supply would be divided.

P.S. A Sith victory would not necessarily lead to this, mutual destruction however would.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.24.2013 , 12:22 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
There is a difference cheap and unimpressive and just plain backward. I mean if we were at war with whoever and went into economic collapse do you think we've revert to fighting with swords, halberds and maces? And started smelting armour and shields? No, we would fight with guns and modern combat gear, but equipment would simply be scarce. We don't have the means to effectively produce centuries old technology because as it has become outdated, the machinery used to create it has been replaced.
I'm not going to try to explain it, because I have no idea why they would revert back to archaic weapons. However, I am lead to believe that the economic downturn in the beginning of the war was so severe that it led to that.

Though your argument leads me to believe that they did fight with modern equipment, just that they eventually ran out of munitions, forcing them to revert back to archaic weaponry. Though I wouldn't call swords and shields archaic. The Dark Trooper project was created by Ron Moch to return the Empire back to that kind of warfare. Also the Jedi and Sith use 'archaic' weapons, at least compared to heavy artillery and all that noise.


Quote:
Therefore an economic collapse in the Republic should not have led to a technological retreat, but rather a scarcity. For example the Kuat Shipyards of the Empire era do not have the capabilities to produce Sith warships of the Great Hyperspace War. However if civilization was all but decimated, we'd be force to start from scratch and with limited resources and information believable would revert to spears and arrows etc. and develop from their.
Actually the Sith and Republic used modern weaponry and equipment early in the war. As seen here. (Look at the image)

This, again, leads me to believe that the economic downturn was so severe that it led to the re-introduction of archaic weaponry.


Quote:
Also, the Sith Empire were not always squabbling and fighting, else they never would have been able to score such decisive victories against the Republic. Indeed at times they were very much unified and conquered large portions of the galaxy, with armaments, resources, shipyards etc. And even if they did split into warring factions, they'd still possess that technology and those capabilities, but supply would be divided.
I never said they were always fighting. Just that when the Republic was on its last leg, the Sith fell apart. How do you think the galaxy ended up in such bad shape, hmm?

To be honest, the Sith infighting is always predictable. Pretty much every Sith offensive has been wounded by infighting. Sadow and Kressh. Revan and Malak. The Sith Empire. I guess that's the only way the good guys can win.


Quote:
P.S. A Sith victory would not necessarily lead to this, mutual destruction however would.[/COLOR]
Possibly. Personally, I see the war ending with the Republic severely injured, with the Alsakan Conflicts* not helping anything.

*That's another thing. I don't think the Republic can be so greatly devastated, because it could retcon the final Alsakan Conflict. The Second Great Galactic War could, however, be the cause of this final conflict. But the time distance between is most likely too great. This means that the Second Great Galactic War and the Sith Empire can't 'devastate' the Republic, because then it would retcon this conflict.

I guess we just have to wait and see.
Added Chapters 39 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.24.2013 , 12:36 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm not going to try to explain it, because I have no idea why they would revert back to archaic weapons. However, I am lead to believe that the economic downturn in the beginning of the war was so severe that it led to that.

Though your argument leads me to believe that they did fight with modern equipment, just that they eventually ran out of munitions, forcing them to revert back to archaic weaponry. Though I wouldn't call swords and shields archaic. The Dark Trooper project was created by Ron Moch to return the Empire back to that kind of warfare. Also the Jedi and Sith use 'archaic' weapons, at least compared to heavy artillery and all that noise.
The Dark Trooper project cost billions of credits, highlighting how it actually costs resource to revert back to past tech. It would actually be a drain on their resources to redesign factories etc. And lightsabers aren't exactly archaic, they are swords made of plasma, far superior to heavy artillery of anything like that.
Quote:
Actually the Sith and Republic used modern weaponry and equipment early in the war. As seen here. (Look at the image)

This, again, leads me to believe that the economic downturn was so severe that it led to the re-introduction of archaic weaponry.
So we've got some dragons, a tank that looks like its had some construction mechanisms welded onto it and some Mando's wearing armour from the Great Sith War and armed with lances. Oh and that Sith looks like he's wearing sheepskin or something. Not exactly this, is it?
Quote:
Possibly. Personally, I see the war ending with the Republic severely injured, with the Alsakan Conflicts* not helping anything.

*That's another thing. I don't think the Republic can be so greatly devastated, because it could retcon the final Alsakan Conflict. The Second Great Galactic War could, however, be the cause of this final conflict. But the time distance between is most likely too great. This means that the Second Great Galactic War and the Sith Empire can't 'devastate' the Republic, because then it would retcon this conflict.

I guess we just have to wait and see.
Certainly retconnable, given the fact that only one occurs in the OR era and has only received a few mentions, not any appearances. And 600 years on the Republic might be back, in fact that conflict would make more sense since Coruscant would be in a severely weakened position, as would the Republic be as a whole.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.24.2013 , 12:55 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[/COLOR]The Dark Trooper project cost billions of credits, highlighting how it actually costs resource to revert back to past tech. It would actually be a drain on their resources to redesign factories etc. And lightsabers aren't exactly archaic, they are swords made of plasma, far superior to heavy artillery of anything like that.So we've got some dragons, a tank that looks like its had some construction mechanisms welded onto it and some Mando's wearing armour from the Great Sith War and armed with lances. Oh and that Sith looks like he's wearing sheepskin or something. Not exactly this, is it?
[COLOR="darkgreen"]Certainly retconnable, given the fact that only one occurs in the OR era and has only received a few mentions, not any appearances. And 600 years on the Republic might be back, in fact that conflict would make more sense since Coruscant would be in a severely weakened position, as would the Republic be as a whole.
Alright, yes the Dark Trooper program was a costly project. And when I referred to lightsabers as archaic, I was merely referring to how they are suited to ancient style warfare. Think about it. Lightsaber vs. artillery at 500 or so meters. But this isn't really important is it?

Perhaps the above image wasn't the best image, but we did see some technology. So they aren't completely technologically inferior. And I didn't see any dragons, just giant droids that look sort of like the Isotope-5 prototypes on Makeb. And I also saw blaster rifles in the hands of that 'sheepskin' guy. So they had technology at the beginning. (one instance... woo hoo )

What about the Darth Desolous conflict? A small war between Sith and Jedi that takes place roughly 100 years after the onset of the Second GGW. This conflict shows the Jedi Order still up and running after the Sith Empire is defeated or whatever ends up happening. Should this be retconned? I don't think it can if the Jedi Temple DLC for TFU is canon.

But whatever, we're debating over something meaningless. We don't know how this war is going to end. We just have to wait and see, but I can assure you that, if Annihilation is any indication, if Drew Karpyshyn ends up writing any more TOR stuff, the Empire's pretty much doomed.
Added Chapters 39 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.24.2013 , 03:12 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Alright, yes the Dark Trooper program was a costly project. And when I referred to lightsabers as archaic, I was merely referring to how they are suited to ancient style warfare. Think about it. Lightsaber vs. artillery at 500 or so meters. But this isn't really important is it?

Perhaps the above image wasn't the best image, but we did see some technology. So they aren't completely technologically inferior. And I didn't see any dragons, just giant droids that look sort of like the Isotope-5 prototypes on Makeb. And I also saw blaster rifles in the hands of that 'sheepskin' guy. So they had technology at the beginning. (one instance... woo hoo )

What about the Darth Desolous conflict? A small war between Sith and Jedi that takes place roughly 100 years after the onset of the Second GGW. This conflict shows the Jedi Order still up and running after the Sith Empire is defeated or whatever ends up happening. Should this be retconned? I don't think it can if the Jedi Temple DLC for TFU is canon.

But whatever, we're debating over something meaningless. We don't know how this war is going to end. We just have to wait and see, but I can assure you that, if Annihilation is any indication, if Drew Karpyshyn ends up writing any more TOR stuff, the Empire's pretty much doomed.
Well lightsabers are suited to any era thanks to their unique characteristics. But moving on.

The giant dragons were whatever those winged beasts in the background where. And this is an Isotope-5 droid. Big difference, as in no crazy, illogical arm things. Not sure if that thing even had blasters... And yes blasters, they always had blasters, their no that backward (although not everyone had one.) The sheepskin guy was the Sith commander, not exactly the heavy duty armour we see in SWTOR. And the Mandalorians seem to be wearing armour from the Great Sith War period, rather than the upgraded versions we see in the JCW and GGW. Its most certainly a significant regression from the tech we see in SWTOR, and in KOTOR for that matter.

Darth Desolous? Pretty sure all that amounts to his a hologram in TFU with a little backstory added. So all in all not exactly major retcons and perhaps not even any. Given that in 100 years time the Jedi might have resurfaced, and easy prey for Desolous.

I don't think this is meaningless, its interesting to speculate as to how the story will pan out. And one thing we can learn from this is that an Imperial victory won't blow any holes in major canon. It could swing either way, so let's not call it just yet. For the Empire!

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
04.24.2013 , 03:45 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well lightsabers are suited to any era thanks to their unique characteristics. But moving on.
Well, yeah. Probably the best infantry-man weapon, given the proper training.

But you have to love THIS!


Quote:
The giant dragons were whatever those winged beasts in the background where. And this is an Isotope-5 droid. Big difference, as in no crazy, illogical arm things. Not sure if that thing even had blasters... And yes blasters, they always had blasters, their no that backward (although not everyone had one.)
Pfft. There's the dragon! Don't know how I missed that. I think, looking at the picture again, that droid looking thing next to the dragon is actually just a claw on the tank.

/epicfacepalm

Then again, I don't think we should take that particular picture as an example of every battle, as it was just Jedi vs. Sith right there.


Quote:
The sheepskin guy was the Sith commander, not exactly the heavy duty armour we see in SWTOR. And the Mandalorians seem to be wearing armour from the Great Sith War period, rather than the upgraded versions we see in the JCW and GGW. Its most certainly a significant regression from the tech we see in SWTOR, and in KOTOR for that matter.
It is a regression from the previous time period, thinking about it. You may be reading too much into it, though. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, we just have to wait and see.

Quote:
Darth Desolous? Pretty sure all that amounts to his a hologram in TFU with a little backstory added. So all in all not exactly major retcons and perhaps not even any. Given that in 100 years time the Jedi might have resurfaced, and easy prey for Desolous.
I guess it wouldn't be a major retcon. Then again, that's subjective.

Quote:
I don't think this is meaningless, its interesting to speculate as to how the story will pan out. And one thing we can learn from this is that an Imperial victory won't blow any holes in major canon. It could swing either way, so let's not call it just yet. For the Empire!
If I were to make a prediction of how the rest of the war is going to pan out while still keeping the continuity maintained, I think it would go down like this:

Spoiler


That's my best prediction. But like I said, we'll have to wait and see.
Added Chapters 39 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus