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Maul.


Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
04.10.2013 , 08:37 AM | #1
Any Sins out there actually -like- Maul? I am really not convinced. When i tested it on the pts, it wasn't much better, if any than Shock. Even on live the damage is on par, if maybe slightly more. All the while throwing a wrench into the rotation. I do see a use for it, filling in when shock, wither, and discharge are all on cd. But I'm not sure how often that really is. For me, I know it isn't often at all.

My question is, I believe thrash or charge upgrade can be better. Am I alone in this?
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.10.2013 , 09:09 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Hockaday View Post
Any Sins out there actually -like- Maul? I am really not convinced. When i tested it on the pts, it wasn't much better, if any than Shock. Even on live the damage is on par, if maybe slightly more. All the while throwing a wrench into the rotation. I do see a use for it, filling in when shock, wither, and discharge are all on cd. But I'm not sure how often that really is. For me, I know it isn't often at all.

My question is, I believe thrash or charge upgrade can be better. Am I alone in this?
You use it in place of a Thrash, on average once every cycle, when Wither and Shock are on cooldown and you don't yet have 3 stacks of HD. It does have a slightly lower chance to proc Energize, but it doesn't make an appreciable difference in overall self-heal timing while simultaneously doing a lot more damage.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
04.10.2013 , 09:12 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
You use it in place of a Thrash, on average once every cycle, when Wither and Shock are on cooldown and you don't yet have 3 stacks of HD. It does have a slightly lower chance to proc Energize, but it doesn't make an appreciable difference in overall self-heal timing while simultaneously doing a lot more damage.
Good point, i did not realize it could proc energize. Guess I'll have to move my abilities around slightly. Was hoping to avoid using another proc'd move lol.
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.10.2013 , 09:18 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Hockaday View Post
Good point, i did not realize it could proc energize. Guess I'll have to move my abilities around slightly. Was hoping to avoid using another proc'd move lol.
Yeah, 2.0 sin tanking is much more complex from a rotation standpoint. I like it a lot. Much higher skill ceiling, and significantly better threat. The class as a whole just feels way more cohesive.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

AggieKasten's Avatar


AggieKasten
04.10.2013 , 09:19 AM | #5
I've wondered the same thing. Both thrash and maul proc energize (along with assassinate and lacerate), which means that really isn't in consideration when comparing them. Also, given how energy conservation is now basically out the window with 2.0 that really isn't a huge concern either. With just straight damage, here is what torhead says about each:

Maul
Deals 1748 - 1981 weapon damage to a single target.

Thrash
Strikes the target twice. Each hit deals 1095 - 1168 weapon damage.

So you're looking at [1748-1981] < [2190-2336]. Plus, that doesn't take into account the 6% boost to thrash damage if you put two skill points into thrashing blades. You can get a 6% boost to maul with assassin's mark, but you have to spend 3 points instead of 2 plus thrashing blades also affects lacerate (and voltaic slash, but if you're going darkness you won't end up with that). Also, you HAVE to use thrash or assassinate to proc a frontal maul so if you're having to thrash anyways why not just maximize the damage that causes and continue to thrash?

I'm not an experienced theorycrafter, and I've heard that maul IS part of an optimized rotation, so take this all with a grain of salt. But I'd be interested to hear an explanation from someone smarter than me how maul is worth using over thrash.
Viscerous-Hoc - Sith Assassin (Darkness) - Jedi Covenant
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Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
04.10.2013 , 09:30 AM | #6
Just did a 3 min parse (had to be short, about to queue) with just thrash and maul...and sabre strike to regen. http://www.torparse.com/a/177136 I was specced with the thrash upgrade and the maul proc.
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
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AggieKasten's Avatar


AggieKasten
04.10.2013 , 09:41 AM | #7
Thanks, hockaday. Lemme do a quick glance at the numbers...

Maul = 2189.47 avg dmg/hit
Thrash = 741.32 avg dmg/hit

Wow. Well then. I stand unbelievably corrected. However:

Over length of the parse (3m 5s)
Maul = 32842 total damage
Thrash = 103785 total damage

While I realize this is a little skewed since a lot of those thrashes would be replaced by shocks/withers/discharges/lightning in a real fight, maul is proc'ed by thrash so I'd assume the ratio between these in a real fight would be vaguely similar which means the a 6% bonus to thrash will be more valuable than a 6% bonus to maul.

So basically, YES use maul whenever it procs but definitely pick 2 points in thrashing blades over 3 points in assassin's mark when filling out your skill tree.
Viscerous-Hoc - Sith Assassin (Darkness) - Jedi Covenant
Daltharum - Jedi Sentinel (Watchman) - Jedi Covenant
Rayben - Imperial Sniper (Marksmanship) - Jedi Covenant
Napott - Commando (Combat Medic) - Jedi Covenant

Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
04.10.2013 , 10:12 AM | #8
http://www.torparse.com/a/177158/24/0/Overview FE Malgus fight. I'll have to run it again, but mauless and compare.

It's worth noting that you can't have both maul and thrash upgrade. At least, not in the build I think is best, with unbreakable will cd being lowered by 30s. Also, not sure if it's good or not, but you cannot keep shock ds and wither on cd using this, though I'm tired so that might be why lol.
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
Nerf Hungering! It's too OP.=Bartle Test Results:= CE VIP
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.10.2013 , 11:47 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Hockaday View Post
It's worth noting that you can't have both maul and thrash upgrade. At least, not in the build I think is best, with unbreakable will cd being lowered by 30s. Also, not sure if it's good or not, but you cannot keep shock ds and wither on cd using this, though I'm tired so that might be why lol.
Taking the CD reduction on the stun break is really unnecessary. I mean, it's a cool talent, and maybe worthwhile situationally, but there are very few fights where it matters (basically just Toth & Zorn, which isn't even current content anymore). There was some discussion on the shadow forums a while back, and after a bit of back and forth, we determined the following build to be optimal for PvE: 39/3/4. If you want extra damage, you can trade Mental Fortitude for Expertise, but your survivability will drop somewhat due to the healing loss.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
04.10.2013 , 02:38 PM | #10
Ah thanks, I'm glad you guys did the work for me. I would have thought that CC break would be better, but now that I think about it...you're right lol.
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
Nerf Hungering! It's too OP.=Bartle Test Results:= CE VIP
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