Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Ideal Tank Stat Distribution

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles
Ideal Tank Stat Distribution

elidion's Avatar


elidion
11.14.2013 , 11:49 AM | #981
And you can't really look at the stat budget that way. You don't want to gear for 3300 like you did there because you would only be optimally geared for 6 seconds out of 23 (or 22 according to KBN). There are sets of rules you need to follow when calculating relic procs that may not have been done in the past. But when you are comparing against Fortunate Redoubt and Shield Amplification each of those relics would technically bump up the defense and shield minimum and maximums. For example at full DF BIS gear you can only have 940 minimum shield. if you used a SA relic only the shield minimum gets bumped. It's better to gear optimally for the overall 23 seconds than for only the 6 second window you have the proc active. that's why we have our numbers.

with my stat calculator at http://syngex.net/tankstats/index.php I have these 2 relics built in for comparison. I should mention that I go by an overall of 23 seconds instead of 22 though, so I only give 163 bonus to each stat. These are DTPS figures for BIS gear, unmitigated F/T/M/R+K/E attacks, based on Average in both DP and DF.

Juggernauts: SA: 2,754 - FR: 2,733
Powertechs: SA: 2,504 - FR: 2,494
Assassins: SA: 2,280 - FR: 2,269

So Fortunate Redoubt is still better for all 3 classes...oddly enough Powertech/Vanguard have the smallest window of difference though.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.14.2013 , 12:30 PM | #982
Quote: Originally Posted by elidion View Post
So Fortunate Redoubt is still better for all 3 classes...oddly enough Powertech/Vanguard have the smallest window of difference though.
This is due to their significant absorb bonuses, so the SA relic should contribute more for vanguards than it does for any other tank. Still not enough to outweigh the FR, but at least closer.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

campbellsoup's Avatar


campbellsoup
11.14.2013 , 02:56 PM | #983
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
You can work around DR by weighting the average contribution of the proc relics to their respective stat by adding that to your total stat budget. So you could add 150 (I think) to your stat budget to account for the defense proc for example. Personally I don't do this as I consider them as separate bonuses.
That doesn't work around the DR at all though, that completely ignores it. Kind of my point to look at them as seperate bonuses, and as seperate bonuses you would be better allocating points into abs from what i've seen. This might not hold true on fights that require high def (elidion's site is great to see how you match up against various bosses)

Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
A click relic is always an option if the fight has significant tank downtime. However a lot of fights have the tank doing something that results in them still taking damage, so proc relics do get the maximum benefit on a lot of those types of fights anyway.

There are fights where using a click relic may be very slightly more optimal, but I personally don't bother, and I know a lot of other tanks don't bother as well.
A lot of the fights where the tank is still doing something, they aren't taking the same amount of damage. The proc relics are definitely good, and will give you more mitigation there, but the mitigation is better used during a higher damaging phase. For example, on Bestia, after a tank swap the other tank has to get the other add. While they have damage coming in the whole time, Bestia will be damaging them more, or if you're the tank with 2x monsters on you during the first half of the fight you'll be taking more.

Quote: Originally Posted by elidion View Post
And you can't really look at the stat budget that way. You don't want to gear for 3300 like you did there because you would only be optimally geared for 6 seconds out of 23 (or 22 according to KBN). There are sets of rules you need to follow when calculating relic procs that may not have been done in the past. But when you are comparing against Fortunate Redoubt and Shield Amplification each of those relics would technically bump up the defense and shield minimum and maximums. For example at full DF BIS gear you can only have 940 minimum shield. if you used a SA relic only the shield minimum gets bumped. It's better to gear optimally for the overall 23 seconds than for only the 6 second window you have the proc active. that's why we have our numbers.

with my stat calculator at http://syngex.net/tankstats/index.php I have these 2 relics built in for comparison. I should mention that I go by an overall of 23 seconds instead of 22 though, so I only give 163 bonus to each stat. These are DTPS figures for BIS gear, unmitigated F/T/M/R+K/E attacks, based on Average in both DP and DF.

Juggernauts: SA: 2,754 - FR: 2,733
Powertechs: SA: 2,504 - FR: 2,494
Assassins: SA: 2,280 - FR: 2,269

So Fortunate Redoubt is still better for all 3 classes...oddly enough Powertech/Vanguard have the smallest window of difference though.
It's still looking at it as an average though. During the uptime (625 extra defense) based on your website and using average both for Jugg, your DTPS changes are:

Average both ops: 1042 Defense, 924 Shield, 716 Absorb: DTPS - 2,782
FR Proc: 1706 Defense, 924 Shield, 716 Absorb: DTPS - 2638
SA Proc: 1042 Defense, 924 Shield, 1341 Absorb: DTPS - 2647
SC Relic use: 1042 Defense, 1244 Shield, 1036 Absorb: DTPS - 2644
FR & SC together: 1706 Defense, 1244 Shield, 1036 Absorb: DTPS - 2507
SA & SC together: 1042 Defense, 1244 Shield, 1661 Absorb: DTPS - 2519
FR & SA together: 1706 Defense, 924 Shield, 1341 Absorb: DTPS - 2509

From this, it looks like the boost to Defense is justified (a little confused as to what DTPS stands for but lower must be better since it drops with more points, assuming damage taken per strike?). It seems counter intuitive to me, but I guess the numbers can't lie. What I do see from this though is that when the SC relic is up, it gives you better mitigation than when SA/FR would proc together. It got nerfed in DF level to only be up for 20s, making it up 16.67% of the time as opposed to 27.3% of the time (using proc every 22s). I still think that if used correctly, you can use it better than having both proc relics, but definitely expected the SA to come out on top especially when the SC was up.

I'll have to go through a little more with some other classes, and I guess I'm wrong about the mitigation allocation. Maybe it would change if the numbers were messed with a lil, but speccing for something that is only up 25-27% of the time isn't quite worth it.

campbellsoup's Avatar


campbellsoup
11.14.2013 , 03:44 PM | #984
After testing it with all of the classes, I found that the FR+SC up at the same time is consistently the highest mitigation. Its only 2 less DTPS for VG/Guardian, but for Shadows its -24 DTPS from a FA/SA combo. It won't be up as much, but while its up, shadows will take less damage with the SC relic than the SA relic. I think that the SC relic is definitely a viable option, and will be best for any fight with tank swapping, and I didn't bother testing the defense on use because it has a much smaller mitigation pool.

Marb's Avatar


Marb
11.14.2013 , 09:32 PM | #985
Kell Dragon and Dread Forged SC relic only lasts for 20 seconds like you said. Underworld lasts for 30 seconds, so wouldn't that make the underworld the BiS SC relic?

EDIT: If it means -2 DTPS just from tanking the boss, I don't think that it would be worth the extra damage guards/vanguards would take over the entire fight if there are adds involved.

It looks like a more significant reduction for shadows though.
Harbinger

campbellsoup's Avatar


campbellsoup
11.14.2013 , 09:39 PM | #986
Yeah, it actually averages out to more averaged points. Makes sense that it would have been better at 30s than the SA for DF level since its technically 640 vs 625 mitigation points, but the time constraint limits it.

steave's Avatar


steave
11.14.2013 , 09:43 PM | #987
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
It already takes nearly two and a half hours (on a very fast, multi-core machine) to generate the graphs, and nearly five minutes to build the tables. Just to give a sense of scale here. :-)

I'm generally a lot less interested in relics than I am in overall stat balance. Dipstik already did a fair amount of work looking at optimized stats with and without relics to see which ones provide the best contribution respecting DR. The results are so vastly in favor of the Fortunate Redoubt and Reactive Warding that I literally hard-coded that assumption into the calculations. In other words, use those relics, time-average the stat contribution as a rough estimate and build your stat allocations around that.
Fair enough

Quote: Originally Posted by elidion View Post
And you can't really look at the stat budget that way. You don't want to gear for 3300 like you did there because you would only be optimally geared for 6 seconds out of 23 (or 22 according to KBN). There are sets of rules you need to follow when calculating relic procs that may not have been done in the past. But when you are comparing against Fortunate Redoubt and Shield Amplification each of those relics would technically bump up the defense and shield minimum and maximums. For example at full DF BIS gear you can only have 940 minimum shield. if you used a SA relic only the shield minimum gets bumped. It's better to gear optimally for the overall 23 seconds than for only the 6 second window you have the proc active. that's why we have our numbers.

with my stat calculator at http://syngex.net/tankstats/index.php I have these 2 relics built in for comparison. I should mention that I go by an overall of 23 seconds instead of 22 though, so I only give 163 bonus to each stat. These are DTPS figures for BIS gear, unmitigated F/T/M/R+K/E attacks, based on Average in both DP and DF.

Juggernauts: SA: 2,754 - FR: 2,733
Powertechs: SA: 2,504 - FR: 2,494
Assassins: SA: 2,280 - FR: 2,269

So Fortunate Redoubt is still better for all 3 classes...oddly enough Powertech/Vanguard have the smallest window of difference though.
I think you misunderstood me - I don't gear for having the best distribution during those 6 seconds, I assumed it would be active 25% of the time and calculated 2 mitigation values, one with the proc and one without, and then calculate if a given stat change will increase my proc mitigation by at least 3 times as much as my no-proc mitigation is decreased.
(25% is probably a bit low indeed, but I went with it anyway since it also had the side effect of valuing the no-proc periods slightly higher, making the DTPS a bit more smooth over the fight)

I'm not arguing that the FR isn't the best relic, I was just interested in getting the stat balance even more optimized...but I suppose it's hard enough to get the values to exactly where you want them that it's not really gonna matter that much anyway.

Grumpftard's Avatar


Grumpftard
11.14.2013 , 11:34 PM | #988
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
I think you misunderstood me - I don't gear for having the best distribution during those 6 seconds, I assumed it would be active 25% of the time and calculated 2 mitigation values, one with the proc and one without, and then calculate if a given stat change will increase my proc mitigation by at least 3 times as much as my no-proc mitigation is decreased.
(25% is probably a bit low indeed, but I went with it anyway since it also had the side effect of valuing the no-proc periods slightly higher, making the DTPS a bit more smooth over the fight)

I'm not arguing that the FR isn't the best relic, I was just interested in getting the stat balance even more optimized...but I suppose it's hard enough to get the values to exactly where you want them that it's not really gonna matter that much anyway.
I think Elidion was referring to Campbellsoup and not you, because Cam was taking the full weight of the relic proc (instead of accounting for uptime...at first) and just adding it into the stat pool resulting in some really skewed assumptions.

Me personally, I agree with what someone else had said. I just look at the relics as a "bonus". I optimize for what I have on hand, because it doesn't change. I wanna get the most I can out of what has a 100% uptime. Relics are not fixed and uptime will vary based on RNG (granted it's a rather narrow variance...but a variance none the less). As far as a proc pushing the DR curve...i don't believe we are really that far into DR yet to where it has that drastic of an impact. And after all....a diminished return is still a return.
TORVA NEX! (The Site) (The Video)
"You don't have to say more than that!!"
Grumpf =Tankasin / G'rumpf =Mara / Gru'mpf =Jugg / Grum'pf =P-Tech
Grump'f =Shadow / G'rump'f =Scoundrel / Gr'umpf =Operative / Jei'Dahl =Merc

Magsel's Avatar


Magsel
11.15.2013 , 03:02 AM | #989
Quote: Originally Posted by elidion View Post
<snip>
Juggernauts: SA: 2,754 - FR: 2,733
Powertechs: SA: 2,504 - FR: 2,494
Assassins: SA: 2,280 - FR: 2,269

So Fortunate Redoubt is still better for all 3 classes...oddly enough Powertech/Vanguard have the smallest window of difference though.
What happened to the FR + RW combo. Aren't they supposed to be BiS for all 3 classes?
(http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...20&postcount=2)

Marb's Avatar


Marb
11.15.2013 , 03:19 AM | #990
I think that's just comparing the shield proc to the defense proc.
Harbinger