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I Hate Overload/Force Wave


Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.28.2013 , 02:55 PM | #21
The reason that Overload/Force Wave is generally the first thing people harp on is because Shadows and Assassins have almost negligible AoE damage (especially at lower levels) and a lot of people see Overload/Force Wave not as a knockback utility (which is what it is) but as a damage ability (which, while it *does* do some tangential amount of damage, it is *not*). It doesn't help that Noxxic actually *recommends* using Force Wave/Overload as part of the fundamental AoE rotation (and most of those people consider Noxxic to actually provide good advice rather than the rubbish that it actually provides so they don't even *realize* it's terrible to use it as such).
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grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
03.28.2013 , 03:18 PM | #22
I wouldn't restrict this hatred to Force Wave and Overload. I'd broaden it to every single mob re positioning move that I'm not using. I especially hate Sharpshooter Gunslingers with the specced KB on Charged Burst(?) or when they run in and use Cover Pulse. Seriously.

As a tank I use Force Pull, Force Wave, Force Push and Harpoon to position and group up mobs just like the OP. Grouping things makes my role, the DPS's role and the healers role much easier and makes the FP much faster. On my DPS and healer toons I am very hesitant to use any of those abilities unless the tanks ask or there is a clear and obvious time to use them like KB off a ledge.

I am especially annoyed about the new talented heals on Commando and Sage KB. These are GREAT tools for PvP and have some benefit when dealing with an Ops boss, but ANY healer who uses one in an FP that I'm tanking is likely to get a reaming. Sure, I'll try and be patient to start with but that's a limited commodity. I actually wouldn't be surprised if many of the great tanks stopped PUGing for that reason.
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Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.28.2013 , 03:57 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
I wouldn't restrict this hatred to Force Wave and Overload. I'd broaden it to every single mob re positioning move that I'm not using. I especially hate Sharpshooter Gunslingers with the specced KB on Charged Burst(?) or when they run in and use Cover Pulse. Seriously.

....
Interesting. It's Aimed Shot / Ambush actually. And it only works if the mob is within 10 meters.

When I'm in grouped content (flashpoints or ops) I'm seldom closer to 10m from a mob, unless I've pulled aggro and the mob is running towards me. In which case that particular knockback has value. Do the gunslingers stack near you during combat or something?

Snipers/Sligners have the longest range in the game for a reason -- they don't need to be within 10m of the tank.

RandomXChance's Avatar


RandomXChance
03.28.2013 , 04:34 PM | #24
On my Sin & Shadow tanks i use it at the start of the fight to knock one group into another so they are nicely grouped up. That and using it to knock enemies off ledges and kill them are really the best uses for the ability.

Whenever Force Wave and Jet Boost like attacks are used poorly I make a point of telling people why it is such a bad idea. Someone uses Force Wave and knocks a group out of an Orbital I comment how their 500 HP attack just knocked the mob out of a 7000 HP attack. Nice work. When Jet Boost is used "because i was being attacked" and knocks the mob out of an AOE, I comment that taking the hit from the mob (they are wearing heavy armor) and letting the AOE kill the mob is much more efficient.

Had a nice example recently. Was doing the Gree Heroic in the PvP area with a group I put together. Two times in a row the Merc used Jet Boots and knocked the mob out of an Orbital.
I said "you should get out of the habit of using Jet Boost so much".
Merc "whatever"
Me "in ops groups people will be very upset with you and will probably kick you for doing that"
Merc: 4 line flame aloing the lines of "I know my class, mind your own business, F off".

Removed from group and since we were in PvP area, killed him. Best part was other two in group joined in.

Put a smile on my face all day.

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SWGEvictee
03.28.2013 , 04:46 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by RandomXChance View Post
Removed from group and since we were in PvP area, killed him. Best part was other two in group joined in.

Put a smile on my face all day.
Ok, thats funny right there! I don't care who ya are.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
03.28.2013 , 07:37 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Interesting. It's Aimed Shot / Ambush actually. And it only works if the mob is within 10 meters.

When I'm in grouped content (flashpoints or ops) I'm seldom closer to 10m from a mob, unless I've pulled aggro and the mob is running towards me. In which case that particular knockback has value. Do the gunslingers stack near you during combat or something?

Snipers/Sligners have the longest range in the game for a reason -- they don't need to be within 10m of the tank.
I have a Sniper rather than a Gunslinger so wasn't sure of the terminology. Just trying to keep it all in Republic terms but unsure of the mirror name, hence the (?). Despite the ability to remain at range, I tend to see ranged DPS staying very close to the mobs and melee. Often around the 8-12m mark rather than the 25-30m mark.

I know most Sharpshooter and Marksmen take that talent as a filler, hell I even did when I was running Marksman since the alternative was the lowered CD on Leg Shot and I didn't PVP a lot. However, as a tank I HATE that talent. It provides a knockback on a rotational ability for the spec. Ultimately, like all KBs player skill is more important but this one brings range into consideration and that is often overlooked.
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Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Vegabond's Avatar


Vegabond
03.28.2013 , 08:45 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by iEuthanasia View Post
Seriously.

No other single ability in this game makes me want to kick someone out of a group faster.

I play a Sin tank and a PT tank on the Imp side. Having mobs grouped up in tight little balls benefits me greatly. I enjoy being able to hit everything all at once and allow my group mates to AoE til their heart is content. And that's usually when the Sin/Sorc DPS/Healer decides that using Overload for it's "good damage" is worth sacrificing the Snipers/Ops Orbital Strike or PT/Mercs Death from Above.

Transversely, I play a Sage TK DPS and a Sent Force Sweep machine. I enjoy being able to utilize some of my best DPS on multiple mobs in tightly packed bunches.

I really wish they would remove the damage from this ability so people would stop using the ability as anything more than a knockback.

/endrant
I feel your pain!

steave's Avatar


steave
03.29.2013 , 08:51 AM | #28
Thinking about it more, part of the issue is probably that overload/force wave is given out so early. Jet boost (the merc ability) does damage too, but you barely ever see anyone use that.
I suspect that's because when you get overload, you're so low leveled and the enemies so weak that the damage from it is actually noticeable in combination with not really having much else to use except your basic attacks, while the merc gets his half way trough dromund kaas where it has already stopped being anywhere near effective and you have many better options.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.29.2013 , 11:52 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
I suspect that's because when you get overload, you're so low leveled and the enemies so weak that the damage from it is actually noticeable in combination with not really having much else to use except your basic attacks, while the merc gets his half way trough dromund kaas where it has already stopped being anywhere near effective and you have many better options.
I actually think it's because Shadows don't get their automatic AoE (Whirling Blow which, even then, is friggin' terrible; Peckenpaugh has even admitted that it costs *way* too much Force to do way too little damage) til 24 and Sages don't get Forcequake til 34. It's not that you get it early. It's that you don't get any other attacks that can be viewed as AoEs (which *every* other class gets at least 1-2 of) until way later. Players are used to having an AoE given to them early on and, since Force Wave is the only attack that hits multiple targets and could be construed as such, they default to it being the equivalent of Sticky Grenade, Thermal Grenade, or Force Sweep (since it's given at a similar level and the only other option is that they simply *don't* have an AoE damage attack, which often doesn't cross their minds).
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jediharrsion's Avatar


jediharrsion
03.29.2013 , 12:01 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by iEuthanasia View Post
Seriously.

No other single ability in this game makes me want to kick someone out of a group faster.

I play a Sin tank and a PT tank on the Imp side. Having mobs grouped up in tight little balls benefits me greatly. I enjoy being able to hit everything all at once and allow my group mates to AoE til their heart is content. And that's usually when the Sin/Sorc DPS/Healer decides that using Overload for it's "good damage" is worth sacrificing the Snipers/Ops Orbital Strike or PT/Mercs Death from Above.

Transversely, I play a Sage TK DPS and a Sent Force Sweep machine. I enjoy being able to utilize some of my best DPS on multiple mobs in tightly packed bunches.

I really wish they would remove the damage from this ability so people would stop using the ability as anything more than a knockback.

/endrant
sounds to me like you've been knocked off the bridge in voidstar/huttball one to many times. The overload/force wave are just fine the way they are.