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Kitru's New Class Idea

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Kitru's New Class Idea

Luceon's Avatar


Luceon
03.26.2013 , 12:11 PM | #11
I vote instead of Echani it should be called Kitru.
Maybe I don't want a signature....

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
03.26.2013 , 01:07 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Yes. Yes, it is.
Good luck with that. Hope you get it =X

Quote: Originally Posted by Luceon View Post
I vote instead of Echani it should be called Kitru.
I agree.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
03.26.2013 , 02:16 PM | #13
More thoughts to come as I continue to mull…

I like the idea of a surge buff, and the 5% value is an obvious balance mirror to the 5% crit buff (hey, multiplication commutes!). The one slight objection I have to it is the value in terms of a raw stat budget is somewhat lower than the value of a crit buff, since crit has a higher divisor in its DR curve. Assuming 2.0 stat scalars, the crit buff is by far the most valuable in terms of stat budget in that it equals the value of about 266 crit rating (much more if you actually have crit to begin with), the main stat buff is worth about 120-130 (similar with the endurance buff), while the bonus damage buff is the least valuable in terms of stat budgets in that it provides the same value as about 20-25 power. A 5% surge buff would only provide the equivalent value of 65 surge rating (significantly more if you have surge to begin with). That's more or less halfway between the main stat buff and the bonus damage buff, but far, far less than the crit buff. With that said, I still wouldn't change it since the surge % chosen is exactly at parity with the crit % buff, and that's more important than arbitrarily balancing against stat budget equivalence.

Regarding main stat, I would actually say that this class should have its own main stat, distinct from the other four. Main stat selection is a tricky thing, as it has obvious implications on gear drops. This is less of an issue now than it was when the game launched (class-agnostic tokens ftw), but class-specific drops do still exist (e.g. hazmat). It also creates an obvious imbalance in the crafting market and economy, which is a potentially larger issue.

I would say that the Echani main stat should be something like Discipline, with a secondary stat of Strength. Ideally, I would rather have two secondary stats (Strength and Willpower), but that would create combat balance issues. Nobody actually stacks secondary stat on their gear, so the choice of secondary stat really just has an effect on which datacrons players pick up. This doesn't seem like something worth caring about. We can add Willpower as a tertiary stat if we want, but not every class has a tertiary stat (troopers do, but consulars don't), so I don't think we *need* to be concerned about it.

More thoughts as they come. I still need to wrap my head around how to model the combat system to the point where I can say anything definite about resource generation/expenditure balance vs output.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Projawa's Avatar


Projawa
03.26.2013 , 02:19 PM | #14
This deserves a dev response

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.26.2013 , 02:53 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Regarding main stat, I would actually say that this class should have its own main stat, distinct from the other four. Main stat selection is a tricky thing, as it has obvious implications on gear drops. This is less of an issue now than it was when the game launched (class-agnostic tokens ftw), but class-specific drops do still exist (e.g. hazmat). It also creates an obvious imbalance in the crafting market and economy, which is a potentially larger issue.

I would say that the Echani main stat should be something like Discipline, with a secondary stat of Strength. Ideally, I would rather have two secondary stats (Strength and Willpower), but that would create combat balance issues. Nobody actually stacks secondary stat on their gear, so the choice of secondary stat really just has an effect on which datacrons players pick up. This doesn't seem like something worth caring about. We can add Willpower as a tertiary stat if we want, but not every class has a tertiary stat (troopers do, but consulars don't), so I don't think we *need* to be concerned about it.
Concerning the primary/secondary stat thing, it should be mentioned that, because they're a Tech class, their secondary stat is actually Cunning which actually ends up being your second option by sticking with Medium armor (man, it's like I actually thought of that :P). I think it also fits in thematically since they're renowned for being cunning tacticians and technologists (rather than having unbreakable wills, which would be indicated with Willpower).

I'm curious how you define tertiary stats though. Afaik, Troopers only get benefits from Aim and Cunning (Aim adds to both ranged and Tech attacks; Cunning just adds to Tech). Since Trooper attacks are either ranged or Tech, they get no benefit from Strength (which only improves melee) or Willpower (which only improves Force).

Concerning adding a new stat, my opinion is that it would end up complicating things too much. It would require creating *vastly* more gear than otherwise (my set up only requires some weapons to be made and a few armor sets; yours would require creating and stating up pretty much *everything* from 1-55), not to mention the datacrons, and attribution of said stat to other classes (as well as figuring out what the "baseline" function of it is, since it can't really be improving hp, melee, ranged, Force, or Tech by default without doubling up with a different stat). One of the advantages of this idea is that it creates a vastly different playstyle experience while filling in one of the extant class archetypes missing from TOR (the martial artist) and requiring a minimal amount of additional developmental effort. The inclusion of a new primary attribute would complicate things which operates contradictory to the idea of minimizing developmental effort for maximum developmental gain.

Quote:
More thoughts as they come. I still need to wrap my head around how to model the combat system to the point where I can say anything definite about resource generation/expenditure balance vs output.
I actually set up the resource generation/consumption paradigm before the Alacrity change for the PTS was included so I haven't actually accounted for that (if it did get made, I figured that it would be hashed out in playtest). I'm pretty confident that it would hold true with the Alac changes since Breath regen would be increased by Alacrity and Intuition gain is fundamentally tied to your Breath (unlike Focus, where Focus gain is tied to flat CDs that are unaffected by Alacrity).

The balancing context was applied insofar as I designed the various specs with specific rotations or use paradigms in mind with the resource mechanisms design to achieve a balance between the generation and consumption of both resources over the duration (all of which are 20-30 seconds long). If people are curious, I can actually provide the intended attack string/rotations for each of the relevant specs for each of the classes, though I tried to keep them relatively obvious.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
03.26.2013 , 04:11 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'm curious how you define tertiary stats though. Afaik, Troopers only get benefits from Aim and Cunning (Aim adds to both ranged and Tech attacks; Cunning just adds to Tech). Since Trooper attacks are either ranged or Tech, they get no benefit from Strength (which only improves melee) or Willpower (which only improves Force).
In some of the early work on figuring out game mechanics, there was a post on Sith Warrior which mentioned an increase in crit chance on specific abilities (e.g. Stockstrike) that was governed by a tertiary stat (in the case of troopers, Strength). This (obviously) doesn't appear in the character sheet. It is a small enough increase that most theory crafters ignore it.

I don't have a link on hand (I'll see if I can find it), and I never did verify the results myself. So right now, file tertiary stat under the sub-heading of "Tam's suspect memory of a random forum post (that he can't link)".

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Concerning adding a new stat, my opinion is that it would end up complicating things too much. It would require creating *vastly* more gear than otherwise (my set up only requires some weapons to be made and a few armor sets; yours would require creating and stating up pretty much *everything* from 1-55), not to mention the datacrons, and attribution of said stat to other classes (as well as figuring out what the "baseline" function of it is, since it can't really be improving hp, melee, ranged, Force, or Tech by default without doubling up with a different stat). One of the advantages of this idea is that it creates a vastly different playstyle experience while filling in one of the extant class archetypes missing from TOR (the martial artist) and requiring a minimal amount of additional developmental effort. The inclusion of a new primary attribute would complicate things which operates contradictory to the idea of minimizing developmental effort for maximum developmental gain.
I agree with all of the above, I'm just curious as to how you would answer the concerns regarding crafting and economy. Unless the class population is negligible relative to the server population, I can't imagine this *not* creating economic balance issues. Loot contention is loot contention, and is always going to be an issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I actually set up the resource generation/consumption paradigm before the Alacrity change for the PTS was included so I haven't actually accounted for that (if it did get made, I figured that it would be hashed out in playtest). I'm pretty confident that it would hold true with the Alac changes since Breath regen would be increased by Alacrity and Intuition gain is fundamentally tied to your Breath (unlike Focus, where Focus gain is tied to flat CDs that are unaffected by Alacrity).
Intuitively, I agree. Alacrity should work just fine, since the limiting factor in the resource mechanic here is Breath, not Intuition. Intuition is really more of a fractional proc mechanic than it is a limiting resource.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The balancing context was applied insofar as I designed the various specs with specific rotations or use paradigms in mind with the resource mechanisms design to achieve a balance between the generation and consumption of both resources over the duration (all of which are 20-30 seconds long). If people are curious, I can actually provide the intended attack string/rotations for each of the relevant specs for each of the classes, though I tried to keep them relatively obvious.
I'd rather puzzle out the attack strings on my own. Aside from being more fun, it has the potential to reveal unanticipated possibilities.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.26.2013 , 04:27 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I agree with all of the above, I'm just curious as to how you would answer the concerns regarding crafting and economy. Unless the class population is negligible relative to the server population, I can't imagine this *not* creating economic balance issues. Loot contention is loot contention, and is always going to be an issue.
As I see it, economic balance concerns are going to occur no matter how you design an additional class (unless you explicitly add 4 new classes at once, one for each mainstat). Crafted Cunning gear is way harder to find and generally goes for worse prices because Smugg/Agent isn't played as much as Knight/Warrior. It could just as easily have gone the entire other way around (my general suspicion is that Smugg/Agent saw a steep drop off in play shortly after release when Scoundrel/Operative DPS was nerfed into oblivion; I recall at release that Sentinels weren't receiving as much play as predicted since their DPS was viewed as inferior so, at release, you'd have seen Cunning gear going for more than Strength). As I see it, the economy will reach equilibrium regardless of how you finagle with it, and the tweaks to REing coming in 2.0 (both making it harder and restricting access to top tier schematics) are going to go to some length to prevent the massive disparity between Cunning craftables and pretty much everything else.

Like I said, I'm not one for choosing a main stat based upon a belief in how the economy will react to it. The economy is a completely separate beast, as I see it, so I'd much rather design the class as a class and then see how the economy reacts to it (or, even better, fix the fundamental aspects of the economy that end up getting broken, like returning to the days when Ops dropped actual schematics in addition to providing the option to RE a specific piece of gear which would normalize the distribution of crafted items by a fair bit).
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
03.26.2013 , 04:44 PM | #18
Makes sense.

One thing that might be added about the advantage of migrating to cunning as the main stat ~ cunning gear with tank stats drops regularly, but none of the current classes make use of it.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
03.26.2013 , 05:40 PM | #19
Always love new classes and definitely a good attempt.

I would say though that a brief explanation on how you think the classes/specs would work would go to much greater lengths than the specific talents and everything (though given your intent I understand why you did it this way).

Personally while designing classes for games I'd rather go for the theme and the mechanics and perhaps some core, defining skills, than giving a complete run over. It's a better "sales pitch" too, as wall of texts are off putting (and, tbh, no matter your level of skills, it's basically impossible to balance stuff in a void like that so your numbers, which I'm certain you researched deeply, are still fairly meaningless)

Btw I hope you take all these comments as I intend them: constructive criticism.

Now, as for opinions... I didn't really read all the skills and talents descriptions, but the basic idea of two resources is nice. Personally I think the way to get out most of this kind of mechanic is making breath the normal resource as all classes get (ammo, force, energy), and keep intuition as a stacking self buff, kinda like centering and similar things BUT make it something you actually have to manage (and as this is going to be an additional class, we can make it more complex I think).

By that I mean: you can decide whether you use it to "fuel" skills (IE: they use intuition along with breath) or you keep it at certain thresholds that give you specific bonuses and perhaps unlock different skills.
In this way you can/have to make trade offs: Will I keep my intuition to the max so I get the bonuses? Will I use it to active skills x and y? Will I discharge it for a powerful buff?

Gives a lot of flexibility in what you can do. You could make skills react somewhat differently depending on intuition levels, and so on.

Just suggestions... One thing I have to say though: we already have 5 melee classes. Tanks kinda require to be meleeish so I understand, but at least one of the advanced classes should be ranged imho. Not sure about the specific skills, but there are "traditional" martial weapon fighters in the SW universe, so giving one of the ACs access to something like the Nightsisters bows would keep the "martial fighters" feel and get you a ranged AC.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
03.26.2013 , 05:44 PM | #20
So, I did some preliminary mathing on the Water tree. I'm a little bit concerned with how the output is looking. Basically, I expressed all of the non-AoE, non-gap-closer abilities along with their damage coefficients and talent bonuses as a function to maximize under the constraints of cooldown, cast time, Breath and Intuition cost and GCD. Assuming I expressed everything appropriately, the result of maximizing this function should be the "standards per second" of damage doable by the tree under ideal circumstances and ideal rotation. The only major component that I *didn't* include here is the stacking "Ebb and Flow" proc, which is absolutely important but extremely difficult to model (still a work in progress). I further made a stochastic assumption w.r.t. True Strike (i.e. using it when statistically ideal from an average cost perspective, not on proc).

Here is the expression:

Code:
Maximize[1/a + 1.2/b + 1.2/c + 1.7/d + 1.17/e + 1.35/f + 1.7/g + 
  1.7/h + 0.3*1.7/d + 0.3*1.7/g + 0.3*1.7/h + 0.1*1.2/b + 
  0.3*0.3*1.2/b + 0.3*0.3/f, 
   d >= 3 + 9 &&                  (* True Strike cast + cd *)
   
  e >= 12 &&                    (* Warcry cd *)
   
  g >= 30 - (g/f) - (g/b) &&    (* Avalanche Strike cd *)
   
  h >= 30 - (h/f) - (h/b) &&    (* Vortex Spin cd *)
   
  a > 1.5 &&                    (* GCD *)
   b > 1.5 &&
   
  c > 1.5 &&
   f > 1.5 &&
  
   25/b + 30/e + 30/g <= 5 &&      (* Breath costs *)
   
  2/c + (4*((1 - 
           0.15)^(d * (3/a + 1/b + 1/c + 0.3/d + 1/e + 1/f + 1/g + 
             1/h))))/d + 2/f + 3/h <= 2/b + 1/e + 1/g &&     (* 
  Intuition costs *)
  
   1/a + 1/b + 1/c + 1/d + 1/e + 1/f + 1/g + 1/h <= 
   1/1.5,      (* Frequency bound (no more than one attack per GCD) *)
 
  {a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h}]
Please check my work. All of the variables represent inverse frequency of ability usage (e.g. you cannot use True Strike more frequently than once every 12 seconds, thus d >= 12). The variables are keyed according to the following:
  • a => quick combination
  • b => power strike
  • c => intuitive strike
  • d => true strike
  • e => warcry
  • f => rising fist
  • g => avalanche strike
  • h => vortex spin

When plugged into Mathematica, the result is the following:

Code:
{0.748216, {a -> 1.94201, b -> 2034.96, c -> 83.6962, d -> 1265.26, 
  e -> 12., f -> 262.53, g -> 29.8715, h -> 55.9048}}
The first number that is concerning here is the total damage output: just 0.75 standards per second *before* armor DR. With armor DR and assuming no armor debuff, we're down to just .49 standards per second. That seems extremely low. Second, these numbers imply an ideal rotation which is somewhat dull. Basically, you use the basic attack almost constantly. You never use Power Strike or True Strike (which is odd, given the proc), almost never use Rising Fist, and *very* rarely use Intuitive Strike or Vortex Spin (which is also odd, since it is the capstone ability for the tree).

Honestly, I think the problem here is that the basic attack is too powerful. If I halve the damage done by Quick Combination (basically, doubling the value of a "standard"), we get something that's much nicer looking:

Code:
{0.841902, {a -> 4.33731, b -> 5.16493, c -> 5697.89, d -> 12., 
  e -> 1409.33, f -> 9.07406, g -> 216.795, h -> 23.0094}}
This now gives us a damage output of 0.55 standards per second (after armor debuff), but remember the standard is now twice as valuable as it was before. Thus, we deal 1.1 * <basic attack damage> per second. This is still low relative to basic attacks for existing classes (e.g. Strike does around 1.1k damage, but a Sentinel in that kind of gear would do easily 2.1k DPS), but it's getting closer. Halving the value yet again brings us to something that looks a bit more reasonable:

Code:
{0.781141, {a -> 4.301, b -> 5.24354, c -> 2740.86, d -> 12., 
  e -> 316.909, f -> 9.19968, g -> 218.077, h -> 23.0877}}
Assuming the basic attack does 1.1k tooltip damage, that gives us an optimal DPS of around 2.23k, which is a little over-powered but not awful. More tuning is required here.

Reducing the damage dealt by Quick Combination also encourages a much more dynamic rotation, where True Strike is used on cooldown, Power Strike is used almost as frequently as Quick Combination, Rising Fist is used frequently, and Vortex Spin is used essentially on cooldown. This seems more in line with how the tree was designed to work.

The gigantic caveat here is that I'm not considering the value of the "Ebb and Flow" proc. As soon as I find a way to include this, I'll update the numbers and post.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)