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What's PvP like on Begeren?


Arocsimus's Avatar


Arocsimus
03.23.2013 , 04:10 AM | #21
The answer to your question Brillat is, Yes it is balanced. Probably one of the more balanced servers at this moment in time from my experience.
Aroca Sixx

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ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
03.23.2013 , 04:53 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliteAssasin View Post
Sorry Zulu but I have to disagree with you on that. Back when Shadowfury was around I can assure you we didn't need a grim member to beat pubs, especially premades from doa, asb and infamous. The same is true for Retaliation. And that's just speaking of the guilds I'm in. You also have Revenge and Black Sun Rising that have plenty of good players and competitive premades. The only difference between these guilds and Grim is that grim just happened to absorb all of the old pvp guilds from the imp side. They may have a lot of players, but there are only a handful in there that are actually good and have an impact on a match, just like any other guild. Back when the server transfers brought all of us together, imp side was the dominant pvp faction. It was only when the numerous guilds fell apart that the pubs began to win warzones. Grim absorbed many of the remnants from the guilds, and now old members are starting to come back making the imp side stronger. Pub side is starting to go through the same decline imp side did back then. The only pvp guild I've seen around lately from the pubs is infamous, but even then their presence isn't enough to make up for the lack of DoA and ASB. Right now I would say the faction balance is about even, whereas about a month or two you could say pubs were the dominant. But as I outlined earlier imps are showing signs of making a comeback, so I wouldn't count them out just yet. Gonna go back to the glory days.
I'm speaking from the terms of an average PvPer, Stelios. From the perspective of a pug, you can not deny the impact that the GD tag makes in a WZ based solely on the weight that tag carries, not even talking about the player's skills or etc. Of course guilds are starting to rise up, which is why I said the Imps are making progress.

But if you're trying to say that the GD monopoly has been removed, then that's clearly wrong because they are still stronger than ever. There is still yet a guild to match GD in size and in PvP strength simply because the only guilds like BSR, Retailiation, FS are still too small knit to really change the perspective of players on the server. Pubside, it's different because the powerhouse PvP guilds are more closer balanced in not just player skill, but in size as well.

It's one thing to have better premades and be able to beat GD in ranked matches. It's another to have a guild that pugs will be thankful for because of the large amount of talent that can be seen on a daily basis because they have multiple premades and solo quers that can change the course of a single match. The monopoly exists because the guild has both quality and quantity.

So the problem will remain if you only seek to beat GD in terms of quality, which can still be debated to the point where I honestly don't want to see it go. You also have to look at the quantity as well, since the reason why Grim is so successful is because they have a majority of the good PvPers, not just that they have a concentrated select few that are dominate in a match.

J_Fred's Avatar


J_Fred
03.23.2013 , 05:21 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
I'm speaking from the terms of an average PvPer, Stelios. From the perspective of a pug, you can not deny the impact that the GD tag makes in a WZ based solely on the weight that tag carries, not even talking about the player's skills or etc. Of course guilds are starting to rise up, which is why I said the Imps are making progress.

Im not sure what you mean by the grimmy tag "carrying weight". Are you implying that when people see grim on the other side they are intimidated or scared?

But if you're trying to say that the GD monopoly has been removed, then that's clearly wrong because they are still stronger than ever. There is still yet a guild to match GD in size and in PvP strength simply because the only guilds like BSR, Retailiation, FS are still too small knit to really change the perspective of players on the server. Pubside, it's different because the powerhouse PvP guilds are more closer balanced in not just player skill, but in size as well.

Guild size really has nothing to do with it. You can only have a max of 8 players per warzone. PvP strength is not measured by how many people you have in your guild, but how effective you are in a warzone. As for changing people's perspective, why would I feel the need to do that? Not really sure where your going there. Out of ASB, Infamous, and DoA, DoA is by far the largest, probably bigger than the two put together. Only difference is that the majority of the DoA guys pve instead of pvp. Our size doesn't make us automatically better than any of our fellow pub guilds.

It's one thing to have better premades and be able to beat GD in ranked matches. It's another to have a guild that pugs will be thankful for because of the large amount of talent that can be seen on a daily basis because they have multiple premades and solo quers that can change the course of a single match. The monopoly exists because the guild has both quality and quantity.

Sounds to me your looking to be carried by premades. No offense but I play to have fun, I'm not looking for anyone to be thankful because I'm in a warzone.


So the problem will remain if you only seek to beat GD in terms of quality, which can still be debated to the point where I honestly don't want to see it go. You also have to look at the quantity as well, since the reason why Grim is so successful is because they have a majority of the good PvPers, not just that they have a concentrated select few that are dominate in a match.

I don't really see a problem to begin with. The reason grim is it's current size is because it picked up players from dead guilds such as OUR CHAINS, Black Suns, AOE, Imperialis Exoriens, and other top pvp guilds that used to populate our server. When they fell apart, grim picked up the pieces. Nothing wrong with that at all, its actually a good strategy. For a good few months grim used to be the ONLY pvp guild on the empire side, then you had shadowfury and black sun rising come up, now we have even more with Revenge and Retaliation (which is made up of the old core shadowfury players) I don't know about you, but when I pvp on either faction I win most of my matches. I gave the faction balance a 60-40 rating because I still think that when it comes to random pugs the reps do better. But that still doesn't hold all that weight when I am pvping with my group.
my comments r bolded

ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
03.23.2013 , 06:04 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by J_Fred View Post
Im not sure what you mean by the grimmy tag "carrying weight". Are you implying that when people see grim on the other side they are intimidated or scared?
Yes, actually, believe it or not. Some of the comments made in the ops chat before a match along with the emotes I see names I've never heard of before perform indicate how happy some of them are to see such a premade. Given how FS, BSR, and even Retailiation premades do not produce the same effect, I can claim the Grim tag is now responsible, not the players.

Quote: Originally Posted by J_Fred View Post
Guild size really has nothing to do with it. You can only have a max of 8 players per warzone. PvP strength is not measured by how many people you have in your guild, but how effective you are in a warzone. As for changing people's perspective, why would I feel the need to do that? Not really sure where your going there. Out of ASB, Infamous, and DoA, DoA is by far the largest, probably bigger than the two put together. Only difference is that the majority of the DoA guys pve instead of pvp. Our size doesn't make us automatically better than any of our fellow pub guilds.
Yet still, in terms of PvP, they are mostly even in not only quality, but quantity. Guild size has a major impact in more than just a single WZ simply because you do not develop a reputation by playing in a single match or even at a specific time period in the day. It's great to have a strong premade that can carry anything in a WZ, but how can that guild tag gain reputation to the point where it's tag merely indicates a decent competition? You may be succesful with a small knit guild, but it won't develop the same reputation that Grim does simply because of the fact that they have multiple premades queing all day long, along with the solo quers. Combined with the reputation they already built up because of the fact that for a time, they were the only Impside PvP guild, Grim remains an unopposed faction because of the massive amount of not just quality they have, but quantity. To change the mindset of an entire server, you need more than just a handful of tight knit people. To challenge something as monopolisitic as Grim, a guild needs to have the combination of both quality and quantity, not just one.

Quote: Originally Posted by J_Fred View Post
Sounds to me your looking to be carried by premades. No offense but I play to have fun, I'm not looking for anyone to be thankful because I'm in a warzone.
Then you have missed my point entirely. I am merely speaking from the perspective of the average player that ques solo and does not belong to any PvP guild. I can guarntee you that the reputation that any other PvP guild out there such as BSR, Retailiation, FS, etc. does not come close to what Grim has established. No offense to any of the guilds that are trying to make a difference, but there is just no competition in terms of reputation between them and Grim. Which is why my point stands, because that kind of lack of competition is still the root cause of the Imps being second to the Republic by a 60/40 margin. To affect a server, you need to make not only a strong impact, but a large one. You won't change an entire server's perspective with just a handful of people.

Quote: Originally Posted by J_Fred View Post
I don't really see a problem to begin with. The reason grim is it's current size is because it picked up players from dead guilds such as OUR CHAINS, Black Suns, AOE, Imperialis Exoriens, and other top pvp guilds that used to populate our server. When they fell apart, grim picked up the pieces. Nothing wrong with that at all, its actually a good strategy. For a good few months grim used to be the ONLY pvp guild on the empire side, then you had shadowfury and black sun rising come up, now we have even more with Revenge and Retaliation (which is made up of the old core shadowfury players) I don't know about you, but when I pvp on either faction I win most of my matches. I gave the faction balance a 60-40 rating because I still think that when it comes to random pugs the reps do better. But that still doesn't hold all that weight when I am pvping with my group
And the bolded statement is where your argument is flawed: YOU and your group may win matches all the time. But do you que every single hour of the day? Sure, from your perspective, things may be great because the matches you enter usually end with a good competition, despite the tags on either side.

Yet to claim that it is like that for an entire server is just plain silly, simply because I don't think you've witnessed the amount of fresh names in 50s that I have seen. The only people I hear complain about BSR, Retailiation and PS premades were the seasoned and veteran players, simply because they can put a group of players together and know when a premade is dominating a match.

But I have argued with people in a WZ in the ops chat to the point where players make the claim that "pubs are just too good to beat". Why is that, if the only three tags that existed in that WZ were Infamous, Company, and ASB? My perspective clearly showed four Infamous players along with a two man ASB and two man Company group, but the average pug saw only "better pubs". The problem exists because on the Impside, I have also been a match where I have faced Pubside pugs from my sister guild and have stomped them with a 4 man Grim team, a two man BSR, and me along with another guildy. And after talking with them in the channel and hearing about what they claimed was going on in the PvP chat on their fleet, I heard that all that Republic team saw on the other side, was Grim. No mention of BSR, no mention of my guild either despite the fact that both of us in our guild finished first and second on the leaderboards, which all uneducated pugs look to as a sign of player skill. The only tag they blame for the loss is Grim, simply because the reputation they have established is unchallenged.

But don't get me wrong, there is progress being made. My point, however, is that you need more than just a handful of quality players to impact a server's overall opinion. If you truly want to beat the Grim machine and make a difference, there has to be another guild that can compete with Grim in BOTH of those factors. Which, despite there being competetors in the field of quality, Grim remains uncontested in the combination of quality and quantity.

PoliteAssasin's Avatar


PoliteAssasin
03.23.2013 , 06:58 AM | #25
Might want to grab a bottle of Mountain Dew and some hot pockets, this is gonna be long.

See that's the thing. We're not looking for fame, we know what we are capable of and when the match is said and done do do our opponents. We're not here to gain anyone's approval, we're here to pvp. I don't know who you talked to back he. Shadowfury was alive, but I know we used to annoy more than a few guilds when we ran our premades in the regs, and have made quite a few players from notable pvp guilds rage. Your mistake is underestimating a guild based on its size. Shadowfury was not as big as grim, but we had matches against their premades and won most of the matchups. (Some against their best, others against average players, again touching upon the point that not everyone in grim is going to have a huge impact on a match). The same can be said when we faced off against DoA, ASB, and infamous as those were the three prominent pvp guilds back in that time as well, DoA recently hitting a bit of a bump.
We even had players from the above guilds name dropping PS a few times when we were pub side (not knowing who we are, and not that it doesn't mean anything - just to give another example of how we were recognized for what we were able to do). Grim is a decent guild don't get me wrong, but size isn't everything. And that was one of the issues that led to the fall if PS, disagreement over that belief. We weren't a large guild, but we annihilated in warzones. We had a small group of highly skilled players that were able to work well together. We didn't need to have 4-5 premades running at a time to have an effect on people. I personally don't care about fame, but you can't deny PS was the talk of the town when we first started running our premades. We shocked a lot of players with our strats and overall effectiveness in warzones. Retaliation has just started to pick up the pace about a week ago, so I compare it to any other guild a this point even PS is a bit premature. But given our performance in 50s the last few days and considering we have many of the core shadowfury members with us, I have no doubt we will once again be doing our part for the factions pvp standing.

Back on Ieldis the top guild on the server was imperialis exoriens aka imperial legacy. Everyone feared IL. But there was another guild made up of only a handful of members who's name escapes me atm but Myrm will no doubt remember, and their premades used to destroy IL. They weren't a large guild, and they weren't on all the time, but their players were highly skilled and all it took was just one of their 4 mans to win a match. Did that mean that imp legacy was a bad guild? No. Did it mean that the guild with the elusive name was a bad guild? No. They both were good, and they both contributed to the success of imp pvp. One was just focused on larger presence while the other had a smaller, more effective, I guess you could say, one. These are guilds like revenge, bsr, and Faceroll syndicate. Now in their cases some are a bit larger than others. But I know revenge and FS seem to be more close knit as well, and I saw them in action the other day vs a grim premade and lets just say if they had any doubts about their competence it completely gone now as they were destroyed. Sometimes the people seemingly unlikely to make a difference are the ones that will surprise you. FS certainly displayed that the other day. And it reminded me of PS and how when we started out no one took us seriously until we went on a Charlie Sheen spree.

As far as this mentality of guild tag fear, maybe pugs on the imp side react that way, but republic pugs certainly don't. Pub pugs have a higher chance of beating an imp premade from ANY guild than if the shoe were on the other foot. They're generally have more awareness and skill than your average imp pug. But that's basically due to the fact that you have plenty if pvp guilds to pull from. DoA, ASB, infamous, company, star forge, along with individuals spread throughout various PVE and rp guilds who are highly skilled in pvp. For example Aeternum Ascension. These are rp people, but don't think for a second that Kho's premade can't take on and beat a premade of any of the pvp guilds on the server. You also have some for El Elyon, order of sixty six, etc. I pvp'd on pub side for probably longer than I have imp side, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone fear a GD premade in the way you suggest, especially pugs. Now that's just speaking of pub pugs, imp pugs on the other hand, you're right on the money on that one. But I think that's because most imp pugs look up to GD because as you say they are the largest pvp guild atm. So that is to be expected. (I will add that idk about you, but i actually prefer fighting grim or other pvp guilds as it gives me and my team some sort of a challenge. Uneven matches just arent fun. I think you were in a match with us the other day where I expressed my disappointment that a grim premade was in another instance of a AHG when we initially thought we were fighting them.) But seeing the performance of revenge, and especially FS, the future of imp pvp looks promising. You won't get name recognition overnight, grim certainly didn't it took a long time of building up the name. But that being said don't underestimate the day of small beginnings. You're only doing yourself a disservice if you make assumptions based on the unknown. And besides, we must have done something right anytime grim tried to recruit several of PS members. Wouldn't be surprised if FS and revenge experience the same. At least it shows where an individuals loyalty lies, so I'm completely fine with it.

Now I'm sure somewhere in this wall of text there are errors. I'm typing on an iPhone with a buggy autocorrect, so deal with it.


And because my post wasnt long enough, here's some comments I dug up on the forums alone regarding PS and BSR when we were around. Just to show you that guilds other than GD were making a difference for the faction performance. And while I dont have videos, I have plenty of screenshots I can show you if you'd like. Obviously the PS name is dead and BSR has one through some changes, but history has a way of repeating itself, and while I can't speak for BSR I can say you haven't seen the last of PS. New model, same parts as Rin Diesel said.

-----------------------------

Quote: Originally Posted by JamesBalla View Post
I wish the imps would que up. Shadowfury and GD will farm pugs all day but never get teams I'll keep trying to set stuff up OG.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ght=Shadowfury

Quote: Originally Posted by Riggz View Post
Team synergy/chemistry is what makes amazing teams. That's why I'm scared of ASB. Shadowfury is about to be right there w/ them at this rate. Black Sun is tardy to the party but will be ready to roll soon
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...dowfury&page=3


Aikon comment:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ry#post5640499


Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Q.Q you were chasing me around this morning!

<--- Mal-ori, commando healer. =P as for the actual topic um... I can't speak for any guilds, but I think the only two "pvp" guilds on imp side are Shadowfury and Grim Determination.
Quote: Originally Posted by MelliMelon View Post
I saw you today, too! You had a weird purple "buff" that I didn't recognize.

Found it online:
http://i.imgur.com/fUP5a.png.

Don't often see jugs with that.

EDIT: I agree with Neo and Mal'ori. Grim Determination, Project Shadowfury, and Black Sun Rising are great PvP guilds.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...ry#post5535253
RP and PVP apprentice of Dreadmaster Zuhara. Ruler of the 7 realms, the 7 seas, and lord of the 18 servers, God save the queen.

hulcalan's Avatar


hulcalan
03.23.2013 , 08:12 AM | #26
tl;dr <3
<Vicious><Shots Fired>
Herro-Kitteh Hello-KittehCheezeburger
Ghostface-killaNightcrawler

Khalhazar's Avatar


Khalhazar
03.23.2013 , 08:40 AM | #27
No time to say everything I want to, but: never assume that an RP server can't have a good PvP scene and good PvPers. I know multiple people (me included) who take PvP very seriously, but came to an RP server for the community.

Since I have alts on both sides, I can say that there are skilled players and the occasional premade on both sides, but that there are enough good people that sometimes premades will lose to a pug. (Full disclosure: my "premade" is usually a tank jugg and a sniper; I mean real premades.)
Semah Valerian <Some Sith and a Spy> | Juggernaut | Begeren Colony

stringcat's Avatar


stringcat
03.23.2013 , 08:57 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Khalhazar View Post
. (Full disclosure: my "premade" is usually a tank jugg and a sniper; I mean real premades.)
Hey, if I get complained at for running a "premade" of my sniper and a tank jugg, you two count too!
Valiya Illegal Test Kitchen The Bastion

FROIDBUSTER's Avatar


FROIDBUSTER
03.23.2013 , 09:02 AM | #29
The imps on BC more or less have a 3:1 numbers advantage in terms of 50 pvp, although this more or less ruins the Imperial solo-queue quality compared to Republic since partial and full group premades only have a 33% chance to get lumped together.

The end result is high number of fairly competitive wargames between Imps, but Republic has a fairly large advantage since their full/partial premades are really only queuing for 8 slots leaving a greater chance to end up on the same team. Likewise since undergeared pugs are competing for those same 8 slots rather than 24 slots, there's a much lower chance to end up with a team full of 14-16k HP which can happen consecutively on Imp side.

Also I guess more republic guilds organize pvp, but that matters much less than the above.

stringcat's Avatar


stringcat
03.23.2013 , 09:13 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by FROIDBUSTER View Post
The imps on BC more or less have a 3:1 numbers advantage in terms of 50 pvp, although this more or less ruins the Imperial solo-queue quality compared to Republic since partial and full group premades only have a 33% chance to get lumped together.
.
Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree that this is true --- at least, I seem to get lumped together with a bunch of partial premades a lot, when I queue Impside with a buddy. Even besides GD, Imps seem to group queue more. (The quality of those partials varies significantly, of course.) But I generally PVP late at night, when there are fewer people queuing generally, so perhaps my perception is skewed.

(Seriously, Pubs, stay up later! Infamous, you are the honorable Pubside night owl exception, so thank you for that.)
Valiya Illegal Test Kitchen The Bastion