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Why isn't there a WZ quitters cooldown?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why isn't there a WZ quitters cooldown?
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.27.2013 , 12:27 PM | #311
Quote: Originally Posted by Dawncatcher View Post
The Terms of Service are the limit of what Bioware should get involved in. A computer server cannot tell if some said, "Goodbye, I can't stand to lose, but I only decided this 30 seconds before the end of the match, and I don't care about the poor backfiller who will join and not get a single medal," or "My wife is shouting! Bye!" Computers cannot tell if people are being jerks; that is for other people to attempt to determine. Hence why you should just make a pre-made and discuss in advance what your reliability expectations are.

And I doubt Bioware has ever sued a customer or otherwise punished them "outside the game". What happens in SWTOR stays in SWTOR, for the most part. Perhaps at most you might get a silence from speaking in chat channels or a ban. But they're not going to come after you and sue you, or at least I doubt it. If someone else wanted to sue you, Bioware might give them your information, but only in response to a legal subpoena; but generally people just ignore list you rather than resorting to that sort of thing.
Well according you your argument BioWare has no business banning people for exploiting unintended actions that don't violate the TOS. Guess what, they did just that, when they banned people for opening chests on Ilum near launch on lowbies. There was nothing in the TOS that states you can't take a lowbie onto Ilum and camp a chest spawn, but they still banned people for doing it. Also they didn't ban people but they fixed the unintended feature of faster leveling on Ilum by removing the bolster from the Western Ice Shelf, they stated it wasn't against the TOS, it wasn't an exploit but they still inserted themselves in the situation, which by your logic they shouldn't. TOS isn't the extent of their control, nor their responsibility. It is simply the extent to which they have the rights to end your access to the game servers, for what ever period of time. As I stated before a debuff which prevents you from queueing for a WZ is not preventing you from playing the game nor is it preventing you from quitting, it is simply giving you a consequence for quitting a WZ. No computer, nor any person should be deciding one way or another the merits of your reasons for leaving a WZ. If you leave for any reason before it ends you should get a debuff, it's fair and it's simple.

As for your second paragraph see my above mentioning of banning. While the TOS does allow for BioWare to sue people, it would only be used in the most extreme of situations, not in a situation where a ban would be appropriate.
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
03.27.2013 , 12:28 PM | #312
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
Considering I only just yesterday finally got rid of my last Recruit piece and have more than my fair share of wins under my belt, assuming that 50% of the people in a WZ have to lose. I don't think I need your advice that I should form/join a group. When I do join a group for PVP it's for Ranked WZs only. I don't feel that Pre-mades have any place in our unranked WZs. So I guess I have more of a pair than you do, because I quite often get into WZs against Pre-mades, and I don't leave just because I am losing, I leave because the WZ has ended. I don't state things that I don't follow.

Your idea that you shouldn't be punished for punishing other people for being randomly grouped with someone who decides to leave is ridiculous. You choose to accept a Queue as soon as it pops and then leave b/c one or more of your group members didn't make it into the WZ, sorry but you should accept the consequences, or not accept the queue pop. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you get a debuff for leaving a WZ that you wouldn't get it if you didn't go into the WZ.
So, because you have no ability/desire to join a group, you want to prevent ME from doing so as well? And how have those many ranked matches you've played turned out? Since you only do Ranked when you're grouped, I assume you've done many...in your Recruit gear?

What server are you on and what are your toon names? I'd like to verify that you a) group and b) only do ranked in that group.

Let's look at this another way ok? I get my queue pop, I enter, but my buddy is loading into Ilum at the time and misses the *pop*. Since, unlike you, I enjoy playing with others who aren't forced upon me by the server, I want to make sure my friend and I can do our next WZ together asap. Right now, I'd leave, leaving plenty of time for a replacement to take my spot prior to the match starting.

But you...you would rather have me leave and get a 30min debuff...or get the match over as fast as possible? My choice would be easy...I'd stand on the ledge in Huttball, pull the ball carrier closer to the goal, faux guard a node, not call incoming, sit in a corner and go fold my laundry, flip on Duck Dynasty and turn back just enough times to "engage" in combat. That's STUPID!!!

I hate quitters too, but I understand that I can win with replacements vs players who don't want to be there and I realize that sometimes, RL interferes with gaming. Sucks...but that's life. I don't ever queue with an intention to leave...I doubt anyone does. Punishing players is NOT the answer.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.27.2013 , 12:30 PM | #313
Quote: Originally Posted by Dawncatcher View Post
How many medals per minute does the frozen player earn while frozen? What if they get frozen right when they're about to get their first killing blow, or are in the middle of a 1v1 fight over a node, or are in the middle of planting a bomb in Voidstar? Have you really thought this through?
You have a valid point there, if they where going to do something along the lines of what he suggests, they should freeze the entire WZ, the players, the objectives, everything, in addition to giving the back fills extra medals, based on the amount of time remaining in the match.
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Kubernetic's Avatar


Kubernetic
03.27.2013 , 12:37 PM | #314
Quote: Originally Posted by Dawncatcher View Post
How many medals per minute does the frozen player earn while frozen? What if they get frozen right when they're about to get their first killing blow, or are in the middle of a 1v1 fight over a node, or are in the middle of planting a bomb in Voidstar? Have you really thought this through?
You could assign some sort of an "average gift" of medals for the player that's frozen, similar to the amount of medals calculated to give to incoming players who are backfilling someone else's abandoned warzone.

I believe it can be tweaked to still be equitable, even to players that are temporarily frozen for a backfill.

You could also assign some additional filters so that the system would automatically look for a player that is NOT in combat to freeze, although eventually you're going to have to pick someone.

Besides, no one has any concern over how many processes a team has in progress when a few of their team members quit (due to no fault or ability to control said abandonment) by the players remaining on the team.

So at some point, being concerned about what the OTHER team is doing has to take a back-seat to insuring the game is a fair fight.

And yes, I've thought it through. Check the link in my Sig for the link to my full post with a full list of concerns as to how the system should proc through the list to find a suitable member to freeze. I think it's a valid system.

Show me any solution from any poster that is anywhere near as fair and equitable as a simple system to make sure that if a match becomes imbalanced, the system takes over to mitigate the imbalance until it is restored and balanced at least in terms of equal numbers of players on each side?

Seems to me like most people are just saying hit the quitter with a debuff or ignore it. Well, apparently BioWare is somehow scared crapless of attaching quitter debuffs. And ignoring this problem is just pure stupid. So what are the other alternatives?
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Kubernetic's Avatar


Kubernetic
03.27.2013 , 12:40 PM | #315
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
You have a valid point there, if they where going to do something along the lines of what he suggests, they should freeze the entire WZ, the players, the objectives, everything, in addition to giving the back fills extra medals, based on the amount of time remaining in the match.
Freezing the entire match is excessive, and you'll most likely just lead to more people quitting a warzone.

Why not temporarily (30 seconds?) inconvenience one player on the opposite team for each quitter rather than punish the entire warzone and 100% of both teams at once?

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The point is to make the match still fun and worthwhile to play for those remaining in the match.
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
03.27.2013 , 12:42 PM | #316
Quote: Originally Posted by Kubernetic View Post
You could assign some sort of an "average gift" of medals for the player that's frozen, similar to the amount of medals calculated to give to incoming players who are backfilling someone else's abandoned warzone.

I believe it can be tweaked to still be equitable, even to players that are temporarily frozen for a backfill.

You could also assign some additional filters so that the system would automatically look for a player that is NOT in combat to freeze, although eventually you're going to have to pick someone.

Besides, no one has any concern over how many processes a team has in progress when a few of their team members quit (due to no fault or ability to control said abandonment) by the players remaining on the team.

So at some point, being concerned about what the OTHER team is doing has to take a back-seat to insuring the game is a fair fight.

And yes, I've thought it through. Show me any solution from any poster that is anywhere near as fair and equitable as a simple system to make sure that if a match becomes imbalanced, the system takes over to mitigate the imbalance until it is restored and balanced at least in terms of equal numbers of players on each side?
Interesting idea...

So you're suggesting that if 1 player quits on the Pubs, one Imp player is frozen until a replacement player is ready to go? If that's right, I'd suggest starting with the LAST person to enter the WZ be "frozen", as that provides incentive to take the queue pop sooner, rather than waiting until there's 1 sec left. Award a medal upon the 'freeze' and one for every 15 (or so) sec's a player is frozen.
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Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
03.27.2013 , 12:52 PM | #317
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
You have a valid point there, if they where going to do something along the lines of what he suggests, they should freeze the entire WZ, the players, the objectives, everything, in addition to giving the back fills extra medals, based on the amount of time remaining in the match.
That could actually work. But there would have to be some sort of mechanism to allow people to vote "we don't care about balance, we just want to get this over with already", otherwise people could easily get stuck waiting 5 minutes or longer for a replacement to queue up, especially during slower hours. Or if the match is about to end anyway.

Raptvre's Avatar


Raptvre
03.27.2013 , 12:54 PM | #318
Please stop with this ridiculous idea of freezing players. If I became frozen for ANY amount of time because someone disconnected or rage quit, I would never pvp again. And no amount of comms would make up for the unbelievable frustration that would come from being frozen due to people quitting.

In fact, people would start doing it on purpose to grief the other team.

It's funny that we have at least 1 'WZ quitters" thread at least once a month since the game has been out and people still have no idea how to fix the actual problem. Everyone is focused on what to do with the players that quit instead of asking the important question - WHY are they quitting?

Fix that first.

And in case you don't know why people quit, it's because they feel like they don't have a chance to win. This is usually because one team has the most skilled players or a better group composition. If you fix this, you may not entirely fix people leaving, but people will want to stay if they know they have a decent chance of winning.

We need individual ratings for pvp so we match equally skilled players against equally skilled players. Then you'll stop the wz quitters posts. Then you will stop all the premade vs pug posts. Then you will stop the recruit gear vs ewh posts.

Stop trying to treat the symptoms instead of the actual problem.

SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.27.2013 , 12:59 PM | #319
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
So, because you have no ability/desire to join a group, you want to prevent ME from doing so as well? And how have those many ranked matches you've played turned out? Since you only do Ranked when you're grouped, I assume you've done many...in your Recruit gear?

What server are you on and what are your toon names? I'd like to verify that you a) group and b) only do ranked in that group.

Let's look at this another way ok? I get my queue pop, I enter, but my buddy is loading into Ilum at the time and misses the *pop*. Since, unlike you, I enjoy playing with others who aren't forced upon me by the server, I want to make sure my friend and I can do our next WZ together asap. Right now, I'd leave, leaving plenty of time for a replacement to take my spot prior to the match starting.

But you...you would rather have me leave and get a 30min debuff...or get the match over as fast as possible? My choice would be easy...I'd stand on the ledge in Huttball, pull the ball carrier closer to the goal, faux guard a node, not call incoming, sit in a corner and go fold my laundry, flip on Duck Dynasty and turn back just enough times to "engage" in combat. That's STUPID!!!

I hate quitters too, but I understand that I can win with replacements vs players who don't want to be there and I realize that sometimes, RL interferes with gaming. Sucks...but that's life. I don't ever queue with an intention to leave...I doubt anyone does. Punishing players is NOT the answer.
No actually I have not queued for Ranked WZ's, as I did not want to do so while I had any recruit pieces still equipped. I also do not queue in groups. I will not now, nor ever will I reveal my toons names on the forums, it creates drama and it's not a situation I enjoy, so I guess you will have to take my word for it, unless you happen to be guilded with me in which case you already would know who my characters are.

In the case of leaving during prep, then no I would not institute the debuff, if you wait till the door opens and you can leave then yep you should get the debuff because you took too long to decide to leave there by creating a window in which during combat you created a disparity which granted the opposing team an advantage for a period of time. Accepting a queue for an in-progress WZ wouldn't be an issue if we did get a warning on those which I also suggested.

The problem isn't that people intend to leave a WZ when they queue for it. The problem is that, as soon as some people see 2 caps on Civil War, or any other time where a team starts out in a semi bad situation they say, "F this team bye." The problem also isn't people that have real world situation which cause them to need to leave a WZ, they would be what we call collateral damage. Yep it sucks but crap happens some times, and people that shouldn't be punished often are as a result of punishing those that do deserve it. In a perfect world no one would need to be punished, but we shouldn't spare all because a minority have legit reasons to leave. We should reward those who replace people who leave. Then we would have a more optimal situation where yes you would lose some small amount of access for leaving a WZ early, but wouldn't be punishing people who join to replace a quitter. Granted 30 minutes might be a bit extreme but I think the smallest amount of time that should even be considered would be the exact amount of time that the particular WZ would take from start to finish to complete, starting at the moment that you leave a WZ. Yes, real life happens and it does suck when it interferes with game play, but the fact that it does should not ever prevent anyone from handling a situation in which any one is preventing anyone else from having a fair shot.

I am not saying that my solution is the best, because the best solution would be for people to just stop leaving WZs and accept what comes out of them. But we don't live in a perfect world, we live in a dark, dirty world, and sometimes living in this dark, dirty world, everyone has to eat a crap sandwich. I got my share while I was getting rid of that Recruit gear, and every time someone left and caused me to lose a WZ, because they couldn't pull their weight. Yes, I blame quitters for losses, b/c a fair portion of the time, when there is still time to turn it around, we can pull off victories in spite of them leaving.

As to what you would do if they implemented my solution, that's just insane. Play the effn WZ or don't bother queueing. Trust me I would rather you not queue than to suffer the consequences of having you in a WZ with me.
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Kubernetic's Avatar


Kubernetic
03.27.2013 , 01:02 PM | #320
Quote: Originally Posted by Raptvre View Post
Please stop with this ridiculous idea of freezing players. If I became frozen for ANY amount of time because someone disconnected or rage quit, I would never pvp again. And no amount of comms would make up for the unbelievable frustration that would come from being frozen due to people quitting.

In fact, people would start doing it on purpose to grief the other team.

It's funny that we have at least 1 'WZ quitters" thread at least once a month since the game has been out and people still have no idea how to fix the actual problem. Everyone is focused on what to do with the players that quit instead of asking the important question - WHY are they quitting?

Fix that first.

And in case you don't know why people quit, it's because they feel like they don't have a chance to win. This is usually because one team has the most skilled players or a better group composition. If you fix this, you may not entirely fix people leaving, but people will want to stay if they know they have a decent chance of winning.

We need individual ratings for pvp so we match equally skilled players against equally skilled players. Then you'll stop the wz quitters posts. Then you will stop all the premade vs pug posts. Then you will stop the recruit gear vs ewh posts.

Stop trying to treat the symptoms instead of the actual problem.
And how do you determine these "individual ratings"? What's your exact solution, if mine isn't functional?
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