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Commando Gunnery Capable or Lame 1.7 and 2

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Trooper
Commando Gunnery Capable or Lame 1.7 and 2

Redcorn's Avatar


Redcorn
03.15.2013 , 08:45 AM | #1
First, I love my commando and it will remain my main, but I am having a fairly tough time accepting my performance compared to other classes in the guild in PVE. I have long accepted that I am more a liability in Ranked PVP, but I do decently well in regular PVP.

So, some observations and questions. I play full Gunny

In PVE OPS I am near the bottom of our DPS. Everyone is geared, including myself. This includes fights with movement and without, and fights I play off-heals, and when I purely DPS. Gunslinger, Sage, Vanguard DPS, and Sentinel are all clobbering me in the DPS meters. I fully understand the straight DPS Gunslinger and Sentinel, but I don't understand why I can't put up the numbers of the DPS sage and Vanguard. They are both hybrid, one with heals and one with heavy armor.

I am seeing something like 17% of the DPS going to the Gunslinger, 16% to the Vanguard, and the rest in the 12% range with me in the bottom of total DPS. My guild mates are very good players.
  1. Am I just a poor player? I don't thinks so, but maybe I am missing something.
  2. Is this just the way Gunny commandos are? If this is true does this change in 2?
  3. As I see it my role is simply the armor debuff of gravround, otherwise any other ranged DPS is better right? Should I change to assault spec and become a quasi melee class, or would I still be offering less DPS than others?

In PVP
  1. Can Gunny ever be succesful and useful in ranked PVP? How about an Assult Commando? Does this change in 2?
  2. If yes to the above question, what do you see the Gunny role being in ranked PVP? How about the Assault Commando?

Thanks guys and gals. Again, this is my main which I have grown found of and will not drop no matter what the answers are here.

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
03.15.2013 , 08:59 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Redcorn View Post
First, I love my commando and it will remain my main, but I am having a fairly tough time accepting my performance compared to other classes in the guild in PVE. I have long accepted that I am more a liability in Ranked PVP, but I do decently well in regular PVP.

So, some observations and questions. I play full Gunny

In PVE OPS I am near the bottom of our DPS. Everyone is geared, including myself. This includes fights with movement and without, and fights I play off-heals, and when I purely DPS. Gunslinger, Sage, Vanguard DPS, and Sentinel are all clobbering me in the DPS meters. I fully understand the straight DPS Gunslinger and Sentinel, but I don't understand why I can't put up the numbers of the DPS sage and Vanguard. They are both hybrid, one with heals and one with heavy armor.

I am seeing something like 17% of the DPS going to the Gunslinger, 16% to the Vanguard, and the rest in the 12% range with me in the bottom of total DPS. My guild mates are very good players.
  1. Am I just a poor player? I don't thinks so, but maybe I am missing something.
  2. Is this just the way Gunny commandos are? If this is true does this change in 2?
  3. As I see it my role is simply the armor debuff of gravround, otherwise any other ranged DPS is better right? Should I change to assault spec and become a quasi melee class, or would I still be offering less DPS than others?

In PVP
  1. Can Gunny ever be succesful and useful in ranked PVP? How about an Assult Commando? Does this change in 2?
  2. If yes to the above question, what do you see the Gunny role being in ranked PVP? How about the Assault Commando?

Thanks guys and gals. Again, this is my main which I have grown found of and will not drop no matter what the answers are here.
Commando is somewhat low on the dps scale, but it's enough to do any kind of pve content. The utility you bring to a group is unfortunately nil, as 2 other classes can provide your same armor debuff (they don't stack), while bringing more dps or more utility.

Assault commandos are fully ranged, unlike the vanguards which are limited to 10 m. All our skills still hit at 30m.

Pvp as a commando is a pain. I wouldn't even dare staying gunnery in pvp, not even for normal wzs. Always respec assault. If they don't bother you too much you can pull very nice damage numbers. That said, if the enemy is competent, you're pretty much a free kill for most classes, which is why there is not place for a commando in a rwz (with perhaps the exception of a healing commando, but scoundrels are better in pvp in just any sense)
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DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
03.15.2013 , 09:17 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Redcorn View Post
I am seeing something like 17% of the DPS going to the Gunslinger, 16% to the Vanguard, and the rest in the 12% range with me in the bottom of total DPS. My guild mates are very good players.
  1. Am I just a poor player? I don't thinks so, but maybe I am missing something.
  2. Is this just the way Gunny commandos are? If this is true does this change in 2?
  3. As I see it my role is simply the armor debuff of gravround, otherwise any other ranged DPS is better right? Should I change to assault spec and become a quasi melee class, or would I still be offering less DPS than others?
If you are that far behind your guildies then it is you. Not being hurtful or anything, just honest. Given equal skill and gear you and your guildies should all be within a few small percentage (2-3%) points of one another. Those percentages will swing between you beating them and them beating you depending on the fight and your Curtain of Fire procs.

If you and your guildies are evenly geared then it comes down to how you are using said gear.

Do you have your PvE gear min/maxed including augments?

Do you have your rotation down?

Are you using the correct build?

Quote: Originally Posted by Redcorn View Post
In PVP
  1. Can Gunny ever be succesful and useful in ranked PVP? How about an Assult Commando? Does this change in 2?
  2. If yes to the above question, what do you see the Gunny role being in ranked PVP? How about the Assault Commando?

Thanks guys and gals. Again, this is my main which I have grown found of and will not drop no matter what the answers are here.
For ranked PvP, a dps commando is not really viable. Anything that they bring to the table, another class can do better and with less babysitting. As for assault, it is just a poor imitation of its VG brother.

Redcorn's Avatar


Redcorn
03.15.2013 , 09:25 AM | #4
I don't see you being hurtful at all, and I thank you.

I am min/maxed, and knowing a Gunny rotations is extremely simple.

Could you give me comparative numbers for your ops and your PVE spec?

We are doing nightmare 16 man EC and hm 16 man TFB at the moment.

I do know when my job is to grab orbs etc. that my DPS naturally goes down, but the prolonged stand and fight encounters should be different.

If I did not feel my DPS was lacking in comparison I would not have posted this, so thank you for responding.

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
03.17.2013 , 05:32 PM | #5
Do you have 285 to 300 surge and acc? 240 crit? Dread guard power click relic and a good passive second relic?

If you can post an example of your rotation/cast priority we can discuss refinements. I'd also like to invite you to take a look at my video of me as a Commando DPS in EC NIM and ask any questions about playstyle and rotation. Similarly here is a parse of me getting 1985 DPS over 12 minutes on an ops dummy.

Advice that I'd give to a player that's looking to make the transition from good DPS to great DPS:
  1. Plasma Grenade with Reserve Power Cell is a DPS increase over everything but Full Auto
  2. Mortar Volley is also a DPS increase over everything but Full Auto
  3. HIB doesn't hit that hard in Gunnery spec. When it doesn't crit mine hits for about 2600 to 3500 depending on how many stacks of +HIB damage I have; Grav round is hitting for about 3000 AND has a +15% crit rate. However, HIB is free damage, so I usually try to save it for when my ammo is dropping down.
  4. You want to be fishing for CoF procs every 6 seconds. I cast grav round, assume I'll get a CoF proc, and cast an instant after the grav round finishes. If I get a CoF proc I can then channel Full Auto for 2.88 seconds, then start casting another Grav Round and fish for another CoF proc.

Redcorn's Avatar


Redcorn
03.18.2013 , 04:35 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by MGNMTTRN View Post
Do you have 285 to 300 surge and acc? 240 crit? Dread guard power click relic and a good passive second relic?

If you can post an example of your rotation/cast priority we can discuss refinements. I'd also like to invite you to take a look at my video of me as a Commando DPS in EC NIM and ask any questions about playstyle and rotation. Similarly here is a parse of me getting 1985 DPS over 12 minutes on an ops dummy.

Advice that I'd give to a player that's looking to make the transition from good DPS to great DPS:
  1. Plasma Grenade with Reserve Power Cell is a DPS increase over everything but Full Auto
  2. Mortar Volley is also a DPS increase over everything but Full Auto
  3. HIB doesn't hit that hard in Gunnery spec. When it doesn't crit mine hits for about 2600 to 3500 depending on how many stacks of +HIB damage I have; Grav round is hitting for about 3000 AND has a +15% crit rate. However, HIB is free damage, so I usually try to save it for when my ammo is dropping down.
  4. You want to be fishing for CoF procs every 6 seconds. I cast grav round, assume I'll get a CoF proc, and cast an instant after the grav round finishes. If I get a CoF proc I can then channel Full Auto for 2.88 seconds, then start casting another Grav Round and fish for another CoF proc.
Rotation
Thank you so very much mate. This is exactly the type of information I needed. Our rotations are the same except I did not use PG. I will change that and begin using it when my RP is available.

Surge and Crit
My surge is 300 but my crit is low according to your stats at 115. But I thought diminishing returns hit at 35% so isnot 240 a bit overkill?

Relics
Using Dread Guard Boundless Ages and Matrix Cube. I proc DGBA every time it is up.

Adrenal
I use a rakata attack adrenal every time it is up.

FA display sometimes only displays a quarter of the channel animation, but I am assuming the damage is fully accounted for, or am I wrong?

At this point I am full Dread Guard except for the chest and the head which are using all 63 armorings, mods, and enhancements in Rakata shells. so I have my 2 and 4 slot bonus during PVE.

Thanks again, I will take sometime on the dummy and post my DPS.

Do you use your Mortar in single boss fights?

SafeJungleFever's Avatar


SafeJungleFever
03.18.2013 , 09:36 AM | #7
I bet your crit is half your issue. We DEPEND on our surge bonus on full auto and Demo Round for our high damage numbers. Diminishing returns is not based on crit percent but crit RATING which are two completely different things. I run at 285 crit and people who haven't run with me before usually ask what kind of funky hybrid spec I'm running when they see what the parser says at the end of the boss fight.

Are you in all AIM augments? Some people are udner the mistaken belief that power is superior. It is not for any class with the 9% boost in primary stat talent (like all commandos have regardless of tree).

Also, for the love of god, ditch the Matrix Cube, hasn't been BiS since WH relics came out in what? 1.4? But if you're already using a DGBA, grab the proc relic, specifically the KINETIC proc relic as it'll gain benefit from your armor piercing cell. Personally I run with a WH power relic and a DG Proc kinetic relic. I don't do the DGBA unless its situationally called for (Op 9 comes to mind). The reason I don't even though technically ti's SLIGHTLY better is that it only has an advantage over WH if you can maintain a 100% up time. Something I find hard to guarantee given that I'm a caster. I.e. DGBA comes off CD right after I proc a curtain of fire. I've just lost relatively speaking a lot of uptime on that relic and it is now inferior to my WH.

Are you bottoming out your ammo? The high alacrity build REQUIRES use of hammershot to maintain regen. In addition a simple thing you can do is always separate high impact bolt and demo round with a full auto.

The absolute key to running a caster is to move early and move little. i cannot emphasize this enough. Gunnery commando is all about anticipating the need to move, getting it done in a minimum of time, planting, and starting up again like you never stopped. On zorn and toth, get to 29.5m and park your butt as fast as possible. On things like Operator IX, leave the 1st core before everyone else, get to 2nd core and start DPSIng as soon as you're at 29m. Etc etc etc. There are thigns you can do beyond that. Since i'm the only caster I run with, on Op IX, I go to the opposite core from everyone else, so i don't have to restart rotation, gain stacks of vortex, etc.

Don't get too discouraged. I've seen people who tear it up as sentinels or dirty fighting gunslingers (which are much more difficult classes) really struggle with the commando for whatever reason. Our simplicity MUST be somewhat overstated.

Redcorn's Avatar


Redcorn
03.19.2013 , 12:40 PM | #8
I am all aim with two accuracy to get over 100 for ranged.

My 2 min ops target dummy parse with exotech stim and full buffs is always around 1850. Longer fights it goes down because of ammo management.

I realize that torparse is not the final word, but looking at the past stats on several bosses I found only a couple of commandos and they were both assault. Vanguard and Powertech are doing great work, but commandos really are absent. I saw no sages which I thought strange. I will continue to monitor.

Redcorn's Avatar


Redcorn
03.22.2013 , 08:09 AM | #9
Just pulled out of my progression group. I just cannot keep up DPS wise so I am a liability. Could well be my play, but I don't really think so.

Have you notice that commandos are never at the top in torparse?

SalBasss's Avatar


SalBasss
03.22.2013 , 08:27 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Redcorn View Post
Just pulled out of my progression group. I just cannot keep up DPS wise so I am a liability. Could well be my play, but I don't really think so.

Have you notice that commandos are never at the top in torparse?
Given everything you've said, I can't imagine you're actually a liability. I have to believe your numbers are at least "good enough" which is all that should matter when in comes to your inclusion in the group. If you aren't hitting enrage timers and you aren't taxing your healers, there's no reason to pull yourself from your group.

Also, listen to SafeJungleFever, he knows what he's talking about. Definitely ditch that Matrix Cube for the Dread Guard damage proc relic (kinetic).
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