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The most easy way to determine if the tank is a bad/dumb one

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
The most easy way to determine if the tank is a bad/dumb one

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
03.15.2013 , 04:43 PM | #21
I main a shadow tank, but I also have a fully-geared Combat Sentinel (probably the worst spec in terms of agro whoring) and a fully geared Lightning Sorc (also pretty terrible). I know first hand the pain of facetanking content, even rolling my agro dump and being careful not to burst too fast.

With that said, I generally guard healers in flashpoints. A bad tank is not a tank who guards a healer. A bad tank is a tank who doesn't recover from his mistakes. Even the most l33t tank is going to lose agro now and again. When I go toe-to-toe with a really sharp, BiS-geared Focus Sentinel that I run with, I can reliably hold agro if I don't make any mistakes. However, if I make the *tiniest* timing error, it comes down to whether or not the sentinel crits on the second tick of Master Strike (and yes, it is that specific). When that happens, I will lose agro. Not because I'm a terrible tank, but because I made a very small error and RNG didn't cover for me.

The thing that separates me from a *bad* tank is I will instantaneously snap the target back by accelerating my taunt timing. Good tanks aren't perfect, they just know how to identify and fix problems without delay.

Obviously, if I guard the sentinel, agro becomes easy-mode and I don't have anything to worry about, but I would rather make my life a little easier w.r.t. AoE threat (especially with the insane volume of trash in FPs) than debuff the threat of just one of my two DPS.
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abokado's Avatar


abokado
03.15.2013 , 05:11 PM | #22
Mhm, yeah, I always think it's funny when I go into a hm fp and the tank puts guard on the heal. Especially if the tank is undergeared. I tell 'em how guard is working and that there almost always no point in putting guard on a healer but sometimes the healer themselves complain saying they need guard lol. Well, I never insist or even ask for guard, if the tanks knows what he's doing he is gonna notice that I'm ripping aggro from him and since I'm a jugg I almost never use my aggro dump.

Talorra's Avatar


Talorra
03.15.2013 , 07:11 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by SturmUndSterne View Post
And I'm a BiS 63s Sentinel. I don't need a guard if I'm doing my job right and using my threat dump on boss fights.

Guard should go on PT/Vanguard DPS first, bad DPS that can't manage aggro second, and overgeared third.
I said "good," not "geared." I know many players who are geared well but are not good. Since I don't know you, and have not played with you, I'm not going to assume anything about your play.

Here's what I do know: In a mix of 61/63, and certainly not BIS, I regularly build up enough threat in between uses of Force Camo to rip off of BIS tanks if I am not guarded. In a HM FP of any tier, with a random tank? I guarantee you I will be tanking most of the fight if the healer has guard. If I step away and stop DPS, sure I can keep from ripping the boss. But I would argue that by not attacking I am not "doing my job" as a DPS in the group. Also, in the case of a Watchman spec Sentinel, the heals generated through burn crits or Zen also generate extra threat, on top of that from attacks.

The simple numbers behind threat in this game should convince anyone to stop putting guard on the healers.

Damage generates threat at a 1:1 ratio.
Heals generate threat at a less than 1:1 ratio.
Tanks in tank stance generate threat at a greater than 1:1 ratio (and some tank abilities generate a higher threat by default).

Characters in melee range (melee) need to overcome 110% of the tank's current threat to pull aggro.

Characters at distance (ranged) need to overcome 130% of the tank's current threat to pull aggro.


So unless your healer is standing in melee range, and your melee are standing there doing nothing, your heals should never need to be guarded. And that 5% damage reduction? Please. Better used on a melee who has to deal with all of the AoE that bosses deal out at close range. That will be less healing for the healer to deal with, versus the healer having to heal him/herself a tiny bit from time to time.

And, by the way, I am not disagreeing with you about Vanguard DPS. I just never, ever see them played. Lucky for them they are getting an aggro dump in 2.0.
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JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
03.15.2013 , 10:37 PM | #24
Unless I know someone is going to pull off, I guard the healer. By the same token, if I'm healing, unless I know one of the DPS is going to pull off I expect to be guarded.

Yes, this is largely for trash. On bosses I'll move the guard to the DPS if it's needed. Often it still isn't. Yes, I run with geared Marauders and Mercs and Snipers. It's called "managing your threat."

My Merc is in full 61s/partial 63s and only ever pulls off trash mobs that will die in a few seconds. Know which mobs to attack, and when. Don't hit an elite if the tank isn't currently hitting it (i.e., he's AOEing it, but his single target hits are going on a different elite). One or two-shot the normals first, then burn down the strongs quick. *Then* turn to the elites. You should be doing this anyways to help keep those mobs off the healer.

If everyone's doing their job right, the guard's not needed at all - but the healer's still the first one that's going to pull off on a group if there's more than 4 enemies active and they're not all grouped up nicely.

Again - boss fights are another story. But trash groups, particularly when there's more of them than there are of you - the healer's the first one who's going to pull off, and the longer you can delay that, the easier the fight will be.

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
03.15.2013 , 11:23 PM | #25
Suggestion why don't you let each tank decide who they want to guard and quit telling them they are wrong in doing so. You don't play with every tank so you have no idea of whether they are a good tank or not based on if they are healing a healer or not.

Let them guard who they want. If you are not in the group then it really doesn't concern you, does it?
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SWGEvictee's Avatar


SWGEvictee
03.15.2013 , 11:36 PM | #26
Guard should be put on whoever shows the most need for it in any particular run. If the DPS is allowing mobs to jump the healer then guard the healer so they can live till the mobs get rounded up again. If a particular dps is constantly getting hit and taking damage guard them. Tactics are fluid or they should be. Anyone going into a FP with only one way to proceed is setting themselves up for failure.

On a side note. DPS if you notice you are constantly pulling agro off the Tank and you do nothing other than yell for guard and keep snaging agro you are a bad DPS. Everyone needs to work with the team to make an optimal group.

Kawabonga's Avatar


Kawabonga
03.16.2013 , 07:13 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Zamppa View Post
Don't Choke into your laugh...(Let's see if you get the meaning...choke you know...)

I play half 63-half61-fully augmented marauder and I just happened to notice during the last few months that be it a jugg tank, assassin or powertech, they all have big problems to keep aggro off me when I put up my full dps-numbers. With guard on me the HMs go much more fluently as the healer does not have to concentrate on healing me and the tank but mainly only the tank. I also happen to know rotations and kill orders so the healer does not need to heal himself/herself too much. There are many tanks around who still refuse to give me the guard and I sometimes ever get private whispers after the run from healers like "I wish he would have given you the guard...". When I don't get the guard even after polite explanation I just tune down my dps. The run takes longer but it was purely the tank's choice.

Healers don't need guard in tier 1 HMs if the tank knows how to keep aggro and the 2 dps know the kill orders. Of course there are people who aren't too good in MMOs, newcomers etc when guarding the healer and explaining things is a good thing but when the group is formed from skilled players who claim to know how to play their class putting guard on healer is waisting the guard which makes the healer's work more hard because s/he has to heal the tank and me.
I play a full 63 fully augmented tank, what's your point? No one needs a guard if the tank know how to keep aggro. Guarding the healer is just an extra precaution. If dps are doing their job well and the tank knows what he's doing dps don't need guard. The only exception could be PT that doesn't have an aggro dump, but still with a good tank it's still not a problem.

If the tank is no good AND tremendously undergeared guard won't matter anyway... i took aggro on my mara while camouflaged and guarded, and still the guard is better off on the healer... Dead healer is worse than dead dps. Not to mention that healers have a harder time healing themselves because of pushback

On a side note... i didn't get the meaning of that choke

Zamppa's Avatar


Zamppa
03.16.2013 , 07:40 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Kawabonga View Post
No one needs a guard if the tank know how to keep aggro. Guarding the healer is just an extra precaution. If dps are doing their job well and the tank knows what he's doing dps don't need guard. The only exception could be PT that doesn't have an aggro dump, but still with a good tank it's still not a problem.
Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking

I still think guarding healers in tier 1 HMs is a total waste. When the tank guards the highest dps who knows kill orders the healer does not even need to heal himself/herself but only the tank and occasionally dps. When the tank guards the healer, the healer has to heal the tank and the dps who constantly steal aggro from the tank. I think most healers find the first option easier and more fun...
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Goare's Avatar


Goare
03.16.2013 , 07:53 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Zamppa View Post
Just did my Daily HM in a PuG group. 25,5k hp Assassin tank could not keep aggro of me in Kaon even though s/he clearly knew how to play the class, not even with guard on me. It just seems my marauder does so awesome dps numbers when I give my best. S/he also was NOT a bad/dumb one as s/he gave me the guard right at the start without me even asking

I still think guarding healers in tier 1 HMs is a total waste. When the tank guards the highest dps who knows kill orders the healer does not even need to heal himself/herself but only the tank and occasionally dps. When the tank guards the healer, the healer has to heal the tank and the dps who constantly steal aggro from the tank. I think most healers find the first option easier and more fun...
This thread is amusing. This game is not hard - I took a 9 month break and tanked fine in Rakata vs BIS 63's on both guardian and shadow. Pretty much comes down to skill of group. The reason to put guard on the healer is that in trash pulls in HM FP's they generate threat on every mob when they heal anyone. Is it required? No.

Generally speaking, if you think you're ripping agro off the tank, its because you're hitting a target the tank isn't focused on. Single target agro management in this game is a joke with taunt fluff. In a HM FP with lots of trash, the tank will be throwing out cursory attacks every GCD on a variety of targets to try to keep threat at least above healer level, while DPS kill weak/special to strong and require little if any healing. Hopefully the DPS are not retarded and are killing the right targets in order - if a pug DPS jumps at a gold first, I'll ignore it and let them tank it. Enjoy buddy. After your rez we can talk about kill order.

If you're running into a tank that can't keep threat on a boss that doesn't have some special agro mechanism, that's no bueno.

Quote:
If the tank is no good AND tremendously undergeared guard won't matter anyway... i took aggro on my mara while camouflaged and guarded, and still the guard is better off on the healer... Dead healer is worse than dead dps. Not to mention that healers have a harder time healing themselves because of pushback
Also this. DPS get plenty of cooldowns to avoid damage and buy time. Healers have a tougher time buying time when they're getting hammered, especially since they build threat on *everything* by default. If you want to be safe on trash pulls, guard the healer. Dumb DPS is, unfortunately, the standard in this game.

Gwence's Avatar


Gwence
03.16.2013 , 08:50 AM | #30
I always guard whichever dps has the higher primary stat in fps, or pug ops, if it becomes clear someone else is better dps I switch but it's usually pretty apparent.

I dont think I've ever put guard on a healer before, it makes no sense. They generate next to no threat, and they won't even get the damage reduction unless they stay fairly close to you, like 10m or something.

only time a healer has agro usually is when a pack of mobs is pulled and there's some ranaged mobs that havent been hit yet cuz they're out from the rest of the pack, then when healer heals yes of course they will be on the healer, but guard won't change that at all, and as soon as someone goes and hits those mobs 1 time they will be off the healer.