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Has the Empire lost the war? Totally?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Has the Empire lost the war? Totally?

KaleTogras's Avatar


KaleTogras
03.20.2013 , 04:12 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Timarick View Post
Spoiler


But you're not wrong to say there will be a momentum shift thanks to the Hutts getting cute and trying to, you guessed it, take over the galaxy (OF COURSE!). So the Empire WILL Strike Back.
Ah, a fellow NC fan, I see .

You're right on the money about the
Spoiler

ZayneDraay's Avatar


ZayneDraay
03.20.2013 , 11:18 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by KaleTogras View Post
Ah, a fellow NC fan, I see .

You're right on the money about the
Spoiler
You guys are right on the credit about the Black Codex. If BW DOES actually use this in a future exspansion, it could make the story REALLY entertaining. It could even star in a FP or Op, at the least, and does not deserve a simple dissmissal with a wave of BW's collective, gigantic hand. So Bioware employees, if you actually read this stuff, (and I believe you do) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put the Black Codex into a future story arc or mission!
"Those who know me by reputation say I am a creature of the cold darkness, a monster if you will. Now you too shall fear me." - Darth Crios, lord of icy wrath

KaleTogras's Avatar


KaleTogras
03.20.2013 , 04:17 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by ZayneDraay View Post
You guys are right on the credit about the Black Codex. If BW DOES actually use this in a future exspansion, it could make the story REALLY entertaining. It could even star in a FP or Op, at the least, and does not deserve a simple dissmissal with a wave of BW's collective, gigantic hand. So Bioware employees, if you actually read this stuff, (and I believe you do) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put the Black Codex into a future story arc or mission!
That could be even worse - it would be like Revan, you spring him out of jail, he barely has time to give one hackneyed speech and bam! He'd dead...or something along those lines. If the Black Codex is placed in a mission/ops/fp, chances are that the end result will be "Raaargh! Me Force Smash puny box!" .

The only proper way to use it is as an extension/catalyst of Chapters 4 and 5 for the IA, maybe even as a big plot point which frames the actions of another character, either an Imp or Pub. Maybe it could create the very turn around the Empire needs! That would be artful and masterful storytelling.

Is BW up to the task? Weeeeell...I heard that IA's writer (God bless him) left BW. Can you imagine if the writer for SI or JC took over ? (Shudders).

ZayneDraay's Avatar


ZayneDraay
03.21.2013 , 10:00 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by KaleTogras View Post
That could be even worse - it would be like Revan, you spring him out of jail, he barely has time to give one hackneyed speech and bam! He'd dead...or something along those lines. If the Black Codex is placed in a mission/ops/fp, chances are that the end result will be "Raaargh! Me Force Smash puny box!" .

The only proper way to use it is as an extension/catalyst of Chapters 4 and 5 for the IA, maybe even as a big plot point which frames the actions of another character, either an Imp or Pub. Maybe it could create the very turn around the Empire needs! That would be artful and masterful storytelling.

Is BW up to the task? Weeeeell...I heard that IA's writer (God bless him) left BW. Can you imagine if the writer for SI or JC took over ? (Shudders).
Ok, first off, you know revan is not dead right? Because multiple people have said they have plans for him. Secondly, your point about adding the Black Codex only for a single character story arc is a really bad idea. You just don't have an item that can change everything in the story of a game and only give ONE class the option to see how the changes take place. No, it should be treated more on the lines of the rebels on Ord Mantell, where you finish them off on the FP "cademimu", even though only the smuggler and the trooper actually saw how the organization worked at first.
"Those who know me by reputation say I am a creature of the cold darkness, a monster if you will. Now you too shall fear me." - Darth Crios, lord of icy wrath

Keitanic's Avatar


Keitanic
03.21.2013 , 12:06 PM | #35
I know that this wouldn't happen, but I would like the Sith to achieve absolute total dominance in the game Nd reduce the republic to a shred of its former self, much like the Sith were before they re-emerged. Have an x-pack based around it, where the empire side fights to retain control and the republic fights for their survival and re-occupying planets. Just would be a refreshing change from the usual BIG BADDIE formula.

Hirilonde's Avatar


Hirilonde
03.25.2013 , 01:48 PM | #36
Well, do keep in mind a few things:

1. Every victory the Republic has scored so far is to win back territory or positioning they lost in the first part of the war. Coruscant, Alderaan, Corellia, Balmorra... these are all things they had at the start of the war and lost. The Republic lost a LOT of ground. Even now, Alderaan remains neutral, Corellia and Balmorra are bombed-out messes that will take years to get their industrial might back in the game, and Belsavis is a huge, messy nightmare, both tactically and PR-wise.

2. With the exception of the Jedi Knight storyline with the attack on Dromund Kaas, NONE of the battlefields are on Imperial worlds. Looking at the in-game Galaxy map is deceptive, because it only shows Kaas and Korriban, but there are many more Imperial worlds, the Chiss Ascendancy, etc that are utterly untouched. This may change, but for right now, the Empire CANNOT be truly defeated as long as the fight remains in Republic space.

3. The Emperor is not dead, though he is rather comatose for the moment. This might not, in fact, be a bad thing, as his objectives weren't necessarily to WIN the war. However, those that now hold power very much DO hold that objective. The Empire has lost most of its heroes from the last war, but the thing about the Empire is they ALWAYS have replacements waiting in the wings.

4. If Revan DOES come back, he won't necessarily come back this time as a Jedi.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
03.25.2013 , 02:33 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirilonde View Post
Well, do keep in mind a few things:

1. Every victory the Republic has scored so far is to win back territory or positioning they lost in the first part of the war. Coruscant, Alderaan, Corellia, Balmorra... these are all things they had at the start of the war and lost. The Republic lost a LOT of ground. Even now, Alderaan remains neutral, Corellia and Balmorra are bombed-out messes that will take years to get their industrial might back in the game, and Belsavis is a huge, messy nightmare, both tactically and PR-wise.

2. With the exception of the Jedi Knight storyline with the attack on Dromund Kaas, NONE of the battlefields are on Imperial worlds. Looking at the in-game Galaxy map is deceptive, because it only shows Kaas and Korriban, but there are many more Imperial worlds, the Chiss Ascendancy, etc that are utterly untouched. This may change, but for right now, the Empire CANNOT be truly defeated as long as the fight remains in Republic space.
Eh.

Exhibit A for "wars that can totally be won without actually invading enemy territory" is the First World War. Nobody - outside of Ludendorff and Hitler and the Dolchsto▀legende crowd - would seriously dispute that Germany had lost, the army was in a shambles, and further resistance was effectively impossible and would lead nowhere. Yet the Entente powers had not occupied German territory at all, save for a sliver of effectively useless ground in Alsace for prestige purposes. The Americans were preparing to attack the Metz-Diedenhofen Moselstellung at the end, but it didn't actually happen, and if one is French one wouldn't consider that "German territory" anyway.

The fact of the matter is that Germany's armies were completely and utterly exhausted by the Kaiserschlacht and by the pressure of maintaining order in the corpse of the Russian Empire. German industry had slowed down to a crawl and could no longer keep up with the demands of war. The Entente blockade had already nearly starved Germany's people into submission (and its morally indefensible maintenance during the armistice did starve them into submission, but that particular war crime is a bit superfluous to this conversation). And all of this without occupying Essen or Frankfurt, let alone Berlin, and all this while Germany still controlled vast non-German spear-won territories as well.

So the Republic's current run of victory is wholly congruent with a narrative of Imperial collapse. That doesn't mean it has to be so; as I think I've said elsewhere, the Empire can't be on its last legs for story purposes if nothing else (and there is a fair amount of "else"). The most I would be willing to say is that the Republic's latest run of victory mostly confirms what we already know, namely: the Republic is not about to lose the war anytime soon. The Empire has been badly beaten, and its already-obvious status as the secondary galactic power confirmed. But that's been going on since the start of the war: since the defeat of Angral/whatever particular crisis one wants to highlight as the outbreak of war, the Empire has conquered precisely zero territory and has relied entirely on spoiling attacks, grind-'em-out battles of attrition calculus, and the like. That most of these operations have turned out badly doesn't really tell us anything new about the Empire's ability, or lack thereof, to make war.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

Hirilonde's Avatar


Hirilonde
03.25.2013 , 03:03 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
Eh.

Exhibit A for "wars that can totally be won without actually invading enemy territory" is the First World War. Nobody - outside of Ludendorff and Hitler and the Dolchsto▀legende crowd - would seriously dispute that Germany had lost, the army was in a shambles, and further resistance was effectively impossible and would lead nowhere. Yet the Entente powers had not occupied German territory at all, save for a sliver of effectively useless ground in Alsace for prestige purposes. The Americans were preparing to attack the Metz-Diedenhofen Moselstellung at the end, but it didn't actually happen, and if one is French one wouldn't consider that "German territory" anyway.
Granted, and the Empire very nearly entered that situation in the first war, just before the Treaty of Coruscant. Supply lines are IMPORTANT, and the Empire was burning their resources faster than they could acquire them.

Most of the Republic work to this point has been cutting off the supply routes of the Imperial Offensive into the Core, which did succeed in forcing them off Corellia and Balmorra, and the Empire has once again burned too many resources trying to grasp the Core Worlds.

I don't think this is a defeat, though. I don't think the Republic has the resources yet to throttle the Empire, or to deliver a killing blow. They've got WAY too many messes to clean up domestically, with Alderaan still undecided, the Separatist wars flaring up all over, Belsavis and all it's dirty laundry being aired out and such. It means things are going to settle back into a back-and-forth struggle for contested systems, like Hoth, Tattooine, Ilum, etc. while both sides regroup and probe the other for weakness.

We'll be just about ready for a major campaign, one way or the other, when the Hutt Cartel knocks things completely off the rails.

I AM hoping that we eventually see some Imperial planets... actual Imperial worlds... and maybe see each side making some real gains into the others' territory (Maybe the Empire gets Alsakan? They're jerks anyway)

The Sith are going to be running around for a few thousand more years, and a lot of Imperial culture and, specifically, the 'pure Dromund Kaas' accent, gets threaded into the core worlds, even nearly 4 millennia later, so I doubt the Empire goes away in anything as neat and tidy as a resounding defeat. More likely the saner parts of the Empire just get sick of Sith madness and side with the Republic to drive them to the margins.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
03.25.2013 , 03:26 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirilonde View Post
Granted, and the Empire very nearly entered that situation in the first war, just before the Treaty of Coruscant. Supply lines are IMPORTANT, and the Empire was burning their resources faster than they could acquire them.

Most of the Republic work to this point has been cutting off the supply routes of the Imperial Offensive into the Core, which did succeed in forcing them off Corellia and Balmorra, and the Empire has once again burned too many resources trying to grasp the Core Worlds.

I don't think this is a defeat, though. I don't think the Republic has the resources yet to throttle the Empire, or to deliver a killing blow. They've got WAY too many messes to clean up domestically, with Alderaan still undecided, the Separatist wars flaring up all over, Belsavis and all it's dirty laundry being aired out and such. It means things are going to settle back into a back-and-forth struggle for contested systems, like Hoth, Tattooine, Ilum, etc. while both sides regroup and probe the other for weakness.

We'll be just about ready for a major campaign, one way or the other, when the Hutt Cartel knocks things completely off the rails.

I AM hoping that we eventually see some Imperial planets... actual Imperial worlds... and maybe see each side making some real gains into the others' territory (Maybe the Empire gets Alsakan? They're jerks anyway)

The Sith are going to be running around for a few thousand more years, and a lot of Imperial culture and, specifically, the 'pure Dromund Kaas' accent, gets threaded into the core worlds, even nearly 4 millennia later, so I doubt the Empire goes away in anything as neat and tidy as a resounding defeat. More likely the saner parts of the Empire just get sick of Sith madness and side with the Republic to drive them to the margins.
I dunno if we can really highlight the importance of supply lines in either conflict. In 1918, the German military was effectively destroyed in force-on-force battles; it was expended unnecessarily against poor objectives and then annihilated in the Hundred Days. And the Empire's most salient and obvious defeat, the Corellian campaign, supposedly cost the Imperial military a staggering ten percent of its overall forces. That's worse than Stalingrad, or Gettysburg, or Kovel-Stanislav, or Leipzig. It's a very real, very serious defeat. And the numbers the Empire lost during the civil war with Malgus, or to the Dread Masters, or whomever, are unknown, but they would only pile on even worse. This isn't a case of supply problems limiting operations with a basically intact army, this is an army that can no longer be reasonably considered to be 'basically intact' at all.

I think that this is a 'defeat' is pretty hard to argue. Magnitude is something else. An enemy can absorb a defeat and keep going. It took a year and a half of extremely hard fighting - including the aforementioned Leipzig campaign - to put Napoleon down after he lost the Grande ArmÚe in Russia. The Eighth Route Army was unquestionably defeated in Manchuria in 1945 and 1946 and bounced back within two years to conquer all of China. Both of the World Wars saw stunning German victories - Entente/Allied defeats - at various points in the conflict that ultimately did not prevent Germany from losing both wars. That this phase of the war so far has been a series of defeats for the Empire does not mean the Empire is in its death throes. And, as the new expansion's storyline clearly shows, even an Empire with a badly attenuated military, political confusion, an absent Emperor, and the usual asinine Sith fratricide is capable of seizing opportunities when and where they exist and causing problems for everybody.

And about the accent business - ugh. I can't even begin to describe what a canonical-linguistic mess that is. Shoehorn the Episode V and Episode VI implied canon into a completely different Empire at a completely different time period because...I don't even know. Drawing conclusions about the viability of the Sith Empire from that would be reaching.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

Saragundius's Avatar


Saragundius
03.25.2013 , 03:50 PM | #40
Point is...

We dont know how this war ends. Maybe Empire wins but then later on Jedi make a rebellion or something like that. We know what comes hundred of years later.

This war can go one way or the other.